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Offline renevoorburg  
#1 Posted : 19 June 2008 20:12:33(UTC)
renevoorburg


Joined: 16/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Planet Earth (mostly)
In a thread on the new BR 64, it was mentioned by klinge-germany that the red dot on this machine means that the firebox is made of steel (in stead of copper). Later, all machines were equiped with a steel firebox.

I've searched the net for details on the difference between a copper or a steel firebox but couldn't find anything.

Anyone who knows?


The red dot is probably a sign for the fireman, so that he knows to how to handle.

Of course, copper is more expensive than steel but a better conductor for heat. Probably the advantage of a better heat efficiency was economically not important enough? Maybe copper fireboxes didn't last as long as steel boxes?

Just some ideas...

René
Offline Ladislas  
#2 Posted : 19 June 2008 21:23:37(UTC)
Ladislas


Joined: 09/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 67
Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
There is a discussion of the advantages and disadvantages of copper and steel fireboxes at pp. 103-105 of John H. White, A History of the American Locomotive: Its Development, 1830-1880 (Dover Publications, 1980). Extensive excerpts from this book, including these pages, are available on Google Book Search. Here is a link to the main page for the book:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=1A4iiGAz628C

By 1900 steel fireboxes were in general use in North America, but as I understand railways in many other parts of the world continued to regard copper fireboxes as preferable because they were more resistant to the stresses caused by thermal expansion and contraction. In some countries the transition to steel only came with the need to conserve strategic materials during the 1939-1945 war. For example, these are the comments of the eminent Richard Maunsell (Chief Mechanical Engineer of the Southern Railway in England) as reported in R.P. Wagner, "Some New Developments of the Stephenson Boiler," 20 Journal of the Institution of Locomotive Engineers (1930), at p. 22:

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:I can only say that steel fireboxes have not proved a success so far as I know in England, when applied to engines designed for main line service. There have been several cases of small shunting engines with steel fireboxes which have given satisfactory results, but not with engines designed for main line service. I do not believe that the failure is due to the poor quality or the unsuitability of the material which is used. Some years ago I imported from America a number of steel firebox plates, and the results obtained with these were no better than the results obtained from plates made to a similar specification, but manufactured in England. My opinion is that the failure was due to the fact that the fireboxes of British engines are relatively small compared with American engines, due to weight and clearance restrictions, and the rate of combustion per square foot per grate area is relatively high; and, in addition to its higher conductivity, a copper firebox will stand up better to high temperatures and severe conditions of service than a steel firebox.
Offline Macfire  
#3 Posted : 20 June 2008 05:46:31(UTC)
Macfire


Joined: 04/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,652
Location: New Zealand
Thanks for the link Mark.
Interesting topic.
Lord Macca
New Zealand branch of Clan Donald.
Offline kbvrod  
#4 Posted : 20 June 2008 07:01:29(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi all,
Red dot= rebuilt boilers.

Dr D
Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 20 June 2008 10:18:37(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,467
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by kbvrod
<br />Hi all,
Red dot= rebuilt boilers.

René got it right: for German locos a red dot means the firebox is made of steel.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Ladislas  
#6 Posted : 21 June 2008 01:42:55(UTC)
Ladislas


Joined: 09/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 67
Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Here's a bit more information specific to the German context, mostly gleaned from Dampflokomotivkunde. Leitfaden zum Lehrfach m 3 II, Dampflokomotiven - Lokomotivkunde für Dienstanfängerlehrgänge. Eisenbahn-Lehrbücherei der Deutschen Bundesbahn Band 134 (Josef Keller Verlag, 1959), at pp. 291-298.

Steel fireboxes were adopted in Germany in 1914-1918 in order to conserve copper, but they were not very durable because suitable specialty steels had not been developed. Copper and copper alloys such as "Kuprodur" (98.8% copper, 0.7% nickel, 0.4% silicon, 0.1% iron) were used again after 1918.

The BR 59 (Württemberg Class K) locomotives are one example:

K 1801 - 1803 / 59 001 - 59 003 (built 1917-1918): copper
K 1804 - 1815 / 59 004 - 59 015 (built 1918): steel
K 1816 - 1844 / 59 016 - 59 044 (built 1922-1923): copper

The copper fireboxes in these locomotives gave so much trouble that they were replaced in the 1920s: Rudolf Röder, Die Baureihe 59.0 (EK-Verlag, 2007), pp. 66-68.

The introduction of special grades of steel such as Krupp IZ II in the 1930s allowed the DR to adopt the steel firebox from about 1935 on, e.g. 03 294 (September 1935) as illustrated in the documentation reproduced here:

http://drehscheibe-online.ist-i...orum/read.php?17,3741601

As René noted, steel does not conduct heat as well as copper. Because of this, steel fireboxes reach a higher temperature than copper ones. At full load the walls of a copper firebox will only be 10-30º C hotter than the boiler water. The walls of a steel firebox will be 100-160º hotter than the water. So the steel firebox is subjected to significantly greater thermal stress. The higher temperature also results in increased deposition of ash particles which interfere with efficient heat transfer, and thus the steel firebox requires more frequent cleaning.

It seems that the DRG (and later the DB) issued a special instruction card (Merkblatt) for locomotives with steel fireboxes, admonishing the fireman to ensure gradual and even heating and cooling, to maintain an even fire and to avoid rapid reductions in steam pressure or water temperature. Good advice in every circumstance, I'm sure, but apparently especially important with a steel firebox.
Offline klinge-germany  
#7 Posted : 07 July 2008 13:29:29(UTC)
klinge-germany


Joined: 15/07/2003(UTC)
Posts: 260
Location: Hamburg,
now i have found my 'eisenbahn journal, technique und function of stemloco,vol.1' which states the same (invention of special grade of steel IZ II) in the 30's. one reason for using steel fireboxes is the toughness of the material, copper fireboxe had walls of 16mm, steel ones only 10mm which saved a remarkable weight.
The red dot on the steamlocos seems to me to have vanished about mid 60's, the last picture i have seen in a booklet of the class 64 with a red dot has a date of 1967. i have never seen this red dot on the so called 'new generation' steam locos (class 10,23,65,66,82) which (from my knowledge) were equipped initially with steel fireboxes, but perhaps someone else here has other information. the booklet of the class 64 clearly states, that the loco has copper fireboxes at its 'birth' (early 30's).
alfred...with M since 1960...layout under construction (in mind...)
collecting M items - but not a collector...
editing posts only for tyops...uppps...typos
Offline spitzenklasse  
#8 Posted : 07 July 2008 15:26:50(UTC)
spitzenklasse


Joined: 06/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,573
Location: ,
What I don't know seems to be a lot. Copper for the firebox? How can copper be forged thick enough to withstand all the heat, and not warp, or crack? Copper is a non-ferrous metal that is soft. I always thought fireboxes were thick cast iron. Books that I have include: Locomotive stokers by J.W. Harding, Scranton Pa. USA 1922 and Catechism of the Locomotive (USA) 1887.
Offline renevoorburg  
#9 Posted : 07 July 2008 15:37:02(UTC)
renevoorburg


Joined: 16/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Planet Earth (mostly)
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by spitzenklasse
<br />What I don't know seems to be a lot. Copper for the firebox? How can copper be forged thick enough to withstand all the heat, and not warp, or crack? Copper is a non-ferrous metal that is soft. I always thought fireboxes were thick cast iron.


How hot will it become? What is the temperature of water boiling at a pressure of, lets say, 12 bar?

René
Offline renevoorburg  
#10 Posted : 07 July 2008 18:09:53(UTC)
renevoorburg


Joined: 16/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Planet Earth (mostly)
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by renevoorburg
<br />
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by spitzenklasse
<br />What I don't know seems to be a lot. Copper for the firebox? How can copper be forged thick enough to withstand all the heat, and not warp, or crack? Copper is a non-ferrous metal that is soft. I always thought fireboxes were thick cast iron.


How hot will it become? What is the temperature of water boiling at a pressure of, lets say, 12 bar?


Boiling water at about 12 bar has a temperature of approx. 190 degrees celcius. So the temperature of the copper wil become about 210-240 C. An iron firebox will become about 290-350 C. Quite a difference!

René
Offline Ladislas  
#11 Posted : 07 July 2008 20:22:05(UTC)
Ladislas


Joined: 09/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 67
Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
The only thing that keeps the firebox from overheating is the water in the boiler. If the water level falls below the minimum, the temperature of the the exposed portion of the firebox (typically the crown sheet at the top) will very quickly rise to a level which no material can withstand - and the result, of course, will be a catastrophic explosion.

Here are links to a couple of source of information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiler_explosion

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Steam_Locomotive_Operation
Offline spitzenklasse  
#12 Posted : 08 July 2008 00:28:35(UTC)
spitzenklasse


Joined: 06/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,573
Location: ,
Thank's for explaining that. I wondered why the copper would not warp, or melt.
Offline klinge-germany  
#13 Posted : 08 July 2008 14:44:31(UTC)
klinge-germany


Joined: 15/07/2003(UTC)
Posts: 260
Location: Hamburg,
and that's the reason why the waterlevel pointer exists in the cabin :-))
more red dots : i discovered yesterday evening an advertisement in an old (1989 i think) eisenbahn journal of ROCO for a class 41 with two red dots, the first one for the firebox made of steeel and the second one for the 'old' boiler material (ST 47K), these boilers have been exchanged in the 50's with new ones so one red dot then has vanished.
and : have a look onto the thread : BR45 picture in the general MRR here !!
alfred...with M since 1960...layout under construction (in mind...)
collecting M items - but not a collector...
editing posts only for tyops...uppps...typos
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