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Offline spitzenklasse  
#1 Posted : 29 May 2008 19:50:33(UTC)
spitzenklasse


Joined: 06/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,573
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Did Borsig works ever complete a 53?
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 29 May 2008 20:31:53(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,444
Location: DE-NW
Did they ever start it?
So far I only read in the M* catalogue that Borsig started working on that loco.

I only know there were 17 different designs for a potential 3rd war loco. AFAIK no decision had been made. If Borsig started working, they made it on their own account - at a time with limited material and fighting getting closer everyday.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Ladislas  
#3 Posted : 29 May 2008 20:43:14(UTC)
Ladislas


Joined: 09/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 67
Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
It seems clear enough that no locomotive was ever completed. Whether any components were fabricated is the subject of controversy.

Kurt Miska has an article about this on his website. As Tom has pointed out, there is a writeup in the 1988-1989 Märklin catalogue (which I do not have, but which Miska summarizes). Excerpts from the summary:

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:According to former Borsig engineer Karl-Heinz Golze, the sentence, "The prototype of the Märklin 3102 locomotive was never built" is incorrect. He was 61 [sic, but I suspect this should say 16] years old at the time and he continues, "At Borsig I saw with my own eyes the first assembly work for this locomotive."

To paraphrase Golze’s quotes, "while we were knocking out 52s [the first Kriegslok], there was also another locomotive under construction which looked quite different from the standard wartime locomotives. It was the Borsig I, the big articulated Lok. Evidently the design had been given the green light because no one was allowed to admit that the war at this point could not be won and the big Lok would be needed for service to the Eastern regions.

Golze describes the sight, "The cylinder mounts could be seen easily. The frame was finished. I walked on it myself." There was a little to see of the tender and the cab as there was of the cylinders but the lathe operators had already worked on the wheel sets. The boiler was also in progress. Golze cannot conceive that the locomotive was ever totally finished or even under steam. He also does not know what became of the parts under construction. "I was drafted in the summer of 1944. Much happened after that and also during the chaotic postwar period that followed. The bottom line is that he never set foot in the Borsig factory again.




On the other hand, Miska cites two Märklin Magazin articles (from 1979 and 1989) and observes:

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Despite ever more difficult working conditions, it seems that the Hennigsdorf engineers talked about building a prototype. While there may have been such talk, there is evidence that were only preliminary sketches but no detailed drawings that would be needed to machine components.

The Borsig history for 1943 notes that the company’s facilities in Hennigsdorf near Berlin were heavily damaged by air raids and therefore continuing with locomotive construction was not possible. It was possible to finish two Kriegsloks in January 1944. Also, it was possible to carry out some locomotive repairs. One source notes that by war’s end in April 1945 only about 25 percent of the company’s machine tools were in working order.


I wonder if any additional information has come forward since 1989 which might resolve the issue.


Link to Miska article:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~...ived/Borsig%20Mallet.htm


And another website with similar information (in German):
http://www.malletlok.de/ge/ge_d/br53.htm
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 29 May 2008 22:55:56(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,444
Location: DE-NW
The M* text can be found in the catalogue or new items brochure 2007 (look for ref. no. 88053 ;-) ).
Here it is online (sorry, I only found the German version).

They say someone said that frame, wheels, and boiler were completed, but nothing had been made for the tender.
Difficult to say how much of this is true ...
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Webmaster  
#5 Posted : 29 May 2008 22:58:29(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,165
But did they find any drawings? Or is the model a total fantasy?
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 29 May 2008 23:04:44(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,444
Location: DE-NW
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Webmaster
<br />But did they find any drawings? Or is the model a total fantasy?

I only know of sketches (see Ladislas' post) with the Mallet design.
M* say there is no evidence that BR 53 was planned to have a condensing tender. So the longest and heaviest M* H0 model (before the Big Boy came) was partially fantasy.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline spitzenklasse  
#7 Posted : 30 May 2008 00:28:42(UTC)
spitzenklasse


Joined: 06/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,573
Location: ,
A Marklin article shows "The Jumbo that was never built" Another Marklin article says: The Jumbo which was built!
There are photos in the catalogue of something being built. I am under an impression that a borsig was blueprinted, approved for build, and soon after being started, the Borsig works were bombed out.
Offline xxup  
#8 Posted : 30 May 2008 03:21:41(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
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Posts: 9,594
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Whatever is the case with the prototype, I really like this steamer and I believe that Marklin did a great job (and service) when they turned a dream into something that you can see working.. I hope that they bring out some more as it is nearly impossible to get a good 37022 any more..
Adrian
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