Märklin introduces "Mobile Vision", etc.- Page 2

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Märklin introduces "Mobile Vision", etc.

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DaleSchultz		#51 Posted : 11 February 2008 04:02:36(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997		such immersion requires, as you say, a camera mounted in the loco. Such a loco can only follow track, somehow turnouts have to be set. This is computationally more complex than flying an aircraft since every turnout has a different address, i.e. the player cannot indicate if they want to turn left or right at a turnout. This requires information about the layout. It is possible to completely create a virtual layout using some software system and have that play pack in the vision goggles. This would remove the need for a camera in a model loco but it also removes any link to any actual model. If the virtual model also happens to match the actual model, you still have to solve the feedback link issue between the model and the vision system.... and even that assumes that the layout builder even built feedback detection into the design.... BTW I have seen video taken from a RC plane and it is very cool.
		Dale Intellibox + own software, K-Track My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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David Dewar		#52 Posted : 11 February 2008 13:25:05(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 7,464 Location: Scotland		I quite fancy the idea with a model plane where it may be more appropriate than with the railway. David
		Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.


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jeehring		#53 Posted : 11 February 2008 15:45:16(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,786 Location: ,		It must be more difficult and needs more training with planes I don't imagine we could see a whole layout in 3D . I believe it is more close to train simulator , driving in a cab with nice image and sound and some data display too . The goal is to approach the reality of a machine conductor , I think... A real locomotives conductor doesn't really take care about turnouts , somebody else manages turnouts for him . The conductor has a kind of road-map or something like that , he has to respect signals , speed , speed limitations , schedule , etc... So I realize that the last range of signals including decoders , C-sinus regulation must be some advantages The internet link is for finding players , driving trains on YOUR layout with you , while you are driving your trains and organizing routes . Also looking at some trains "moving alone" because under control of somebody else ( from another continent or so...) , I find more fun ! I'm only guessing . I like this idea : same as you are inviting someone to play with you , more exciting . May be it is like for planes : one is wearing headset , the other player has no head set ...Depending the way they do it...wait and see BTW the price should be about 800 E . PS I guess a software on where you can choose several levels of of images , real image of the layout or mixed with different virtual landscapes through the windshield , several levels of control , etc...


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DaleSchultz		#54 Posted : 11 February 2008 18:31:29(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997		Roland the issue being questions is how to get the information on an actual layout into the Vision system. To define the play area for an aircraft is easy. "You can fly in any space above the ground." Done. To define a model layout you have to define how all the tracks are joined and what addresses need to be set for every turnout, length of each track, is it in a tunnel or station or in a hidden area, etc. Without that, you cannot start to talk about controlling a model train at all with such a system. It is a simple matter of information flow and absence of magic. Multi player play, across continents, via the Internet, on a virtual layout that someone designed is possible and is just like such games such as BZflag that my son plays. Doing this for trains is not too different from simply adding multi player capability to MS Train simulator. But none of that causes anything to actually MOVE in the real world. As soon as you want to control some physical object you have to have the information bridge from the real world (scale model) to the virtual world (3D model in Vision system). For RC planes that is trivial - empty space and you can move anywhere you like, no special information needed to turn left or right speed up etc. For a train layout this is difficult enough that many customers battle to even get their digital controllers (PC or command center) to do what they want.
		Dale Intellibox + own software, K-Track My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
		WWW BLOG

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laalves		#55 Posted : 11 February 2008 19:55:21(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 2,162 Location: Portugal		It's much simpler than all this. My dealer just reported to me that he tested Mobile Vision on Saturday in the Messe and it's simply a pair of goggles with a LCD mini screen. You drive your train with a camera installed, using your MS or CS as you usually do and have the impression you're inside the driver's cabin. No fancy vitual world, just real time images relayed to your goggles. This may prompt people to install stronger lighting in the trains to illuminate the track at night, and to detail the interior of the tunnels. This sounds sort of cool in a geeky way...[}:)] It may be the sort of thing people with completed layouts (not me!) may end up investing, short of interesting neuheiten on a particular year.
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DaleSchultz		#56 Posted : 11 February 2008 20:01:13(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997		Thanks for the reality update ! So does it come with a camera to attach on the loco ? Or do you have to provide your own?
		Dale Intellibox + own software, K-Track My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
		WWW BLOG

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jeehring		#57 Posted : 11 February 2008 22:12:50(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,786 Location: ,		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by DaleSchultz <br />Roland the issue being questions is how to get the information on an actual layout into the Vision system. To define the play area for an aircraft is easy. "You can fly in any space above the ground." Done. To define a model layout you have to define how all the tracks are joined and what addresses need to be set for every turnout, length of each track, is it in a tunnel or station or in a hidden area, etc. Without that, you cannot start to talk about controlling a model train at all with such a system. It is a simple matter of information flow and absence of magic. Multi player play, across continents, via the Internet, on a virtual layout that someone designed is possible and is just like such games such as BZflag that my son plays. Doing this for trains is not too different from simply adding multi player capability to MS Train simulator. But none of that causes anything to actually MOVE in the real world. As soon as you want to control some physical object you have to have the information bridge from the real world (scale model) to the virtual world (3D model in Vision system). For RC planes that is trivial - empty space and you can move anywhere you like, no special information needed to turn left or right speed up etc. For a train layout this is difficult enough that many customers battle to even get their digital controllers (PC or command center) to do what they want. Planes are not trains , I agree Forget about how you have been playing trains untill now . Think about the situation of a real conductor on the real trains in the real life .His behaviour , what he has to think about , etc etc ( Is he deciding to turn left or to turn right ?) Have you ever play " collective" layout with one or two , three , more players ? I believe data must be transmitted and seen in the head set , I may suppose those data could only concern the conductor's job ....BUT , I believe that Mobile Vision is optionnal , and Marklin will introduce later ( may be 2009 ?) some other parts of Marklin system , that will be used with or without Mobile Vision... That's only my point of view , without any informations from Marklin or any else... I believe the evolution of digital systems will be in a way of more similarity between real trains and train models ,re producing realistic and true behaviour , optionnal ability to act as a real conductor . ACTING like a conductor means : PLAYING ( it s just a different game ) .. The fact that you can drive and operate turnouts and signal at the same time is because we must be abble to play alone... With real trains in the real life , thre are automatic detections too...


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Hemmerich		#58 Posted : 11 February 2008 22:15:18(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,734 Location: ,		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by laalves <br />It's much simpler than all this. My dealer just reported to me that he tested Mobile Vision on Saturday in the Messe and it's simply a pair of goggles with a LCD mini screen. You drive your train with a camera installed, using your MS or CS as you usually do and have the impression you're inside the driver's cabin. Luis, correct. It provides a very interesting new view of driving an own train and I'm also confident that it will attract many (model) train fans just because of this. Isn't it always our dream to be just that: sitting in the drivers seat and hit the "Go" button. The current demonstration was done with a modified ICE. When being offered in fall it will look VERY different (just wait and see).


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xxup		#59 Posted : 11 February 2008 22:30:44(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC) Posts: 9,603 Location: Australia		Thanks for the picture Lutz.. Miss 8 and I just purchased the wagon with the two wolves, but we could not understand how the black metal pieces fitted... As for the Mobile vision... When it is available Miss 8 (10?) and I will certainly have a look..
		Adrian Australia flag by abFlags.com


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DA 800		#60 Posted : 11 February 2008 23:07:27(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 02/01/2008(UTC) Posts: 170 Location: Norway		In my thoughts the biggest difference would be having TWO cameras in the locomotive, producing a stereoscopic picture for both eyes. This would make a dramatical difference and the feeling that you are actually sitting in the train. Imagine what you would feel at high speed and perhaps a crash....! Could be really cool!
		- MRR keeps the child in you alive!


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Larry		#61 Posted : 12 February 2008 01:07:19(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/11/2003(UTC) Posts: 1,443 Location: Northeast Ohio		Thanks, Lutz. Maybe Dale's been doing this from the beginning of time and I have had cameras mounted at times on Maerklin cars on my layout with an overhead tv to show the view from the cab. However, for the vast majority of current modelers and kids, especially, it is a tremendously delightful and new perspective. I can see some of the more creative kids even hoping to see what a train crash is like and what it is like when the locomotive goes off track. The creativity of Maerklin is putting the image on glasses makes it more like flying a jet aircraft and, well, some of these trains can go plenty fast even in scale speed! I just wonder what Maerklin will charge for this since wireless remote cameras such as this are fairly inexpensive. Hopefully they will be reasonably priced so that not only the rich kids can afford this new and creative application to model railroading by Maerklin. Model railroading needs all the help it can get to sustain itself by appealing more to kids. Without these changes, in a few decades, no one might attend train shows.


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jeehring		#62 Posted : 12 February 2008 02:07:37(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,786 Location: ,		On the link given by Steven train, it is said 800 E. It is not normal price for video goggles + one camera . Best quality of video gogles is around 250E . Average price is between 100 E and 150 E . Camera + hertzian link is not more than video headset . So 800E = other items , other features...


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laalves		#63 Posted : 12 February 2008 02:48:22(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 2,162 Location: Portugal		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by jeehring <br />On the link given by Steven train, it is said 800 E. Wow, that's worth a lot of track, switches, point motors, catenary... OR 2 or 3 complete trains! Meaning: I don't think I will get one of these !
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kbvrod		#64 Posted : 12 February 2008 05:28:47(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,597 Location: Beverly, MA		Hi all, It's Marklin,what does one expect?Lower prices?[V] Dr Dirt


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nevw		#65 Posted : 12 February 2008 11:59:04(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC) Posts: 11,071 Location: Murrumba Downs QLD		kevin, of course we do. Wots that the pigs are flying again. N
		NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders and a hose pipe on the aorta Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around


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jeehring		#66 Posted : 12 February 2008 13:51:14(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,786 Location: ,		The quality of video headset seems to depend on many things : resolution & size of the screen , angle of vision , etc... Price for nice goggles ( NOMADE) offering 320/240 pixels is around 200E ( similar to a 2m X 2M screen that we watch at a distance of 1 meter) I found some other kind of goggles , stereo sound + video , they said : 24 bits , 640X480VGA , battery lithium ion included in the branches , weight 59 gramms etc ...at a price of 260 E In Apple stores , we can find video goggles from MYVU to be connected to Ipod . It is sold around 300/350 E ( they said 300$ in USA ). Apple goggles allow you to stay in contact with immediate environment . While other goggles brings you in a completely closed world . Universal "media viewer" from Myvu is about 200$ Click : http://www.myvu.com/HomePage.html# ( playing on the screen with PC mouse gives a " 3D" impression ,a software must be implemented ...) Looking at pictures , the Mobil vision looks different and more "sophisticated" , seems to have bigger screen...( never seen that kind of goggles before ,- may be with video games ? - are they specific to Marklin , anyone knows ? ) What about internet ? what about the locomotives ? etc...etc


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laalves		#67 Posted : 12 February 2008 14:39:51(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 2,162 Location: Portugal		From what I could (barely) decypher from Lutz's cryptic words, I'm inclined to believe a vehicle is included in the lot. Probably a lok, since they mention that it's the view of a lokführer: they usually ride in the cab . So, maybe the bundle includes a lok with a camera and the goggles. The 800€ is getting (just) a tad more reasonable. Maybe the goggles have sound, the camera a mike and the lok a Loksound too [}:)]! Again geeky cool, with a wireless MS, one could drive the trains in the basement, while watching the soapies in the living room...
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