Actual this statement is factual error - all of my HO UP / American freight cars etc., are of chinese orgin and marked as such - so is almost all of the newer z gauge stuff. Again only when shipped into North America...

.... and no, this isn't racism - point of fact is we have seen many safety and health related recalls of chinese made toys, electrical goods, pet food, food for human consumption etc. over the last 6 months - and that coupled with the somewhat questionable Marklin quality of late, and mixed (but deviously hidden) countries of origin in Marklin items - leads one to wonder about the quality, reliability and safety of newer Marklin items.[:(]

FYI Both my 1 Gauge Wurtemberg Esslingen sets, and the Bavarian Hofzug sets are wonderful models - and made in Korea (also identified as such on the boxes, thanks to NAFTA) - these are items manufactured several years ago by Marklin under the Topp administration, I believe - so the outsourcing isn't new.

Wonder why the EU doesn't require country of origin labelling?[}:)]

.... and quite honestly the towing of Marklin's corporate line by some forum members is pretty pathetic - maybe a corporate Maerklin mole inserted into the forums to watch over and discipline forum members (I like conspiracies - makes for good reading!).

Also bear in mind that as far as Human rights, child labour, worker health and safety, environmental impact sustainability and fair wages go - China is one of the worst offenders in the world - so, yes, I have another political , social, and environmental reason to avoid buying chinese goods - as much as I possibly can.

But I suppose for many Maerklin addicts these other values probably don't matter, as long as its cheap and fun to play with, I suppose ...... it does matter however for me, and believe me - I have a lot of Maerklin stuff. To each his own, but it is s ironic that a German company would do business with totalitarian socialist regime, which like I said has a very questionable record when it comes to workers rights and health and safety - and then tries to obscure that fact, unless obligated too, by legislation in countries attached to NAFTA ....

I'd suggest the europeans aren't complaining as much about chinese manufacturing of Marklin items - simply because they don obviously know which items are coming from China versus Hungary, versus Germany.

That Dutch Gamma set with the imitation 3000 - is of chinese origin, at least the loco and transformer are ....

7gauges raises several good points and we now know that Marklin stuff is being made in China although not the quantity.
Here in the UK as far as I am aware all goods sold must have the country of origin marked. However like many I buy from Germany and with the goods coming from a German shop there may not be any requirement to show the origin.
As for the towing of the Marklin line well it is only one person and and I would doubt if it is the Marklin view anyway.


I also agree that goods can be made using child labour or unfair wages and if I thought this was the case with M I would stop buying. However I believe that the Marklin name would not be brought down by such actions and trust they deal with their workers fairly.

Martin makes a very good point about quality and as a dealer I am sure he knows just how important this is to us.

David

As an American, I believe major companies have to compete in a global market. This may mean production of products in China. It may also mean the Indian companies outsourcing information technology back to Americans. There is a rule about all of this and it is let the buyer beware plus you vote by your purchases. I really don't care if Maerklin is not fully admitting that products are made in China. I mean recently I received the new transformers and they each have stamps clearly stating "Made in China". If Dietz is going to China to save the company good for him, but it would be stupid to broadcast that in the German labor environment. And, while you guys may not see discounts on your high end loco purchases there are now a whole slew of models Maerklin is now offering with very competitive and attractive pricing. Like it or not we're in a world of better, faster and cheaper rules the day. There is no going back. And, in terms of human rights records that is not going to be solved by individual model railroad companies. It will take international relations to begin to address those issues.

Hello Martin,

I could tell you why - but this would be a quite private message.



That's my primary motivation as a member in this and other forums.



It is indeed the case (fact) that although I've seen a few TRIX HO products with the explicit "Made in China" sticker here - even in the display of the Märklin Museum shop! - and there is also no discussion about Z models (marginal), I've so far neither seen any of the models you mention here and in your posting some days ago in the Märklin news section, nor did I ever see any other Märklin HO product with that label - and I also did not get a confirmation for it when I asked explicit at the Museum shop (actually on Tuesday). Nevertheless, in order to acknowledge your findings, I've changed my "fact#5" statement accordingly.

What I solely disliked with John's "facts" and conclusion were amongst the "general attitude" especially two statments:

"ALL new Märklin stuff comes from China" and

"Märklin fired lots of their long time workers".

A person who claims to be a "Märklin fan" would not make such false and inappropriate statements, especially when knowing it better!



I don't think so; they will do whatever is required to adhere to legal conditions or laws (just recall the transformer or plug safety issue - they did a lot there and didn't really get all the recognition they deserve). Märklin customers here know that some of these products may come from Märklin in Göppingen, Györ or even China; they're not upset and by no means make such a "blowup" about it like especially the U.S. customers as can be seen (again) here. Any customer may want to do what they like; if a U.S. customer decides not to purchase "Made in China" it's all up to him.



Correct!



Me too (except for some members who don't want to "play fair").

PS: Hopefully this thread is "closed" now.

Unacceptable statements.
I agree with David.
Please Juan do not "close" this topic.

Ron Well said. Nikos. Thank you.

With regard to country of origin as I think I said in the UK we do show on goods where thay are made so it may be that other European countries also do this.
I think all we want here is honesty as to what we are buying and from where and then all will make up their own minds if they wish to buy Marklin.
I am happy to buy from any country friendly to the UK who treats their workers fairly and produce good quality goods. Where Marklin is concerned the name is very much part of Germany where we expect quality engineering and in the minds of the customer manufacture elsewhere appears to devalue the product but not our enthusiasm for the brand.
This is just my view which hopefully does not offend.

David

I tried to refrain from posting to this thread, but the smarter half of my brain lost out!!! Anyway...

I am torn on this issue. As a consumer, I want the best that my money (with which I am willing to part) can buy. I also like to stretch my dollar as much as possible when applicable. But, I am also increasingly worried about outsourcing for a few reasons:

1) Conditions of workers and human rights in some popular global outsourcing locations could very likely be below what I would consider acceptable. This bothers me. Anyone see the recent blurb about the GAP potentially using child labor to manufacure their goods? How about the head of the pharm regulatory group in Asia that was sentenced to death for accepting bribes and such to let drugs and drug products slip through the process faster than normal? Very scary stuff...

2) I worry that we, as a country, are potentially relying too much on outside sources for products and services. I worry that we will become too dependant on others for our general well-being. Call this ethnocentric, call it racist, call it whatever- but that's my view. It bothers me that many people who live here have lost their jobs due to global outsourcing. I also realize that we will have to rely on others for some things- no one place has all the resources (in general) to support such a population.

Unfortunately, it's a big ugly circular situation fueled by the very individuals who decry such actions (for example myself- since I want the most for my dollar... I will potentially buy something not made in America).

It's really a tough situation to say the least.

I guess at the end of the day, only time will tell. I don't blame anybody for not wanting to buy something made in a particular location nor do I hold it against anyone who doesn't care where something is built.

Meanwhile, I will enjoy the trains I have and strive to collect those I desire....

My last parting shot would be to Juan:

Perhaps an Off Topic forum herein would be beneficial for discussions of this nature? I personally don't think there is room in the main train forums for political views and such (but yet I just contributed to this very thread didn't I?!). At least with an Off Topic section, people could pose these tough and interesting questions and maybe civility could rule? But maybe an Off Topic section is an unwelcome invitation for yet more charged topics...?

Just a thought.

Jim...if this topic belongs anywhere, it should be in NMR, but even there religion and politics should be avoided. I think that the issue of where items are made is marginally acceptable as long as nationalistic and political aspects are avoided. We don't need yet another section of the forum devoted to non NMR issues, though.

Thank you, Thomas - great topic! And that's the point from where discussions arise
Let's forget China for a moment. Why this obscurity What do they hide from us

Please have a look at the bogies of your older locos ...
In embossed metal letters they clearly read "Made in Germany"

The new engines tell us nothing, anymore - and leave us totally in the dark [xx(]
So out of curiosity it is only understandable we paying customers wanna know.

Are there no laws for consumer information in the European Community re declaration of origin
Since missing proof of origin will only feed speculation. And discussion about will never end ...

Kallheinz,

You forgot to mention the reason for the closure: double production (i.e. major company inefficiency) with labor cost in Sonneberg about 3x of that in Györ. As a result the majority of Sonneberg's production has been moved to Györ, with a corresponding increase of workforce there. Anything "wrong" with such a business decision under the known pressure for cost reductions?

Another (small) item which might be of interest: The 2006 ICTI list reports a 10% share for Märklin goods from China; which appears to be in line with the corresponding management statements. It was also clearly published that this percentage may/will increase by some degree (not to 50%, Mistel Holnung ).

PS: IMHO there is nothing special and it's just normal for any other member here being proud of his/her citizenship; and more important - it has nothing to do with Märklin's business decisions.

I agree Rational Debate not irrational argument.
N

My 2 cents

(for what it's worth)

After reading all the rhetoric and stuff it really seems like there are 2 major classes of people here:
- 1: Those who like 'the old stuff' (this includes me)
AND who want new stuff made like old stuff
- 2: Those who don't mind changes as long as they're good.

I think it would be fair to say I like the heavy old locs, the smell of ozone and rumble and rattle of metal gears and that there are lots like me in that respect. What we like is a memory - something from our childhood, first experience or some sort of nostalgia attached to Marklin and the fact it was made in Germany. For us, anything made in China would just not measure up, no matter how great the quality.

Now, having said that, I remember my old Evil Kneivel pump-up stunt motorcycle. It had this cool air-pump that got the rear wheel moving, then you release that catch and zoooooom! It was made in China, probably, and I'd buy another one like it now no matter where it was made (or what price, reasonably) simply because I'd want my kiddo to enjoy it - and I remember how much I liked it.

There's no stopping 'progress' or economics. My budget doesn't cover purchasing new (or old) Marklin like I wish it would, but then I'm not buying new M for its collector value. Who knows? My daughter may, in 30 years, be thinking about her starter set loc like I'm thinking about that motorcycle. And then, what does the country of orgin matter?

Like I said, just my 2 cents.

Dear Eric - to put it clearly:

I have no problem with China. Or Europe. Or the Northpole (except for the f****** cold [xx(])
How could I. Our own family is multi-cultural (and multi-lingual) - there are members of
American, Chinese, French, Italian and Skandinavian origin (in alphabetical order) [:p]
And by my profession I've made friends all over the world - with some of the nicest in Asia



No, it's M's new breed of young "super-managers" giving me trouble - they are no good for
us lovers of classic Marklins (still more, they are not always honest to us):

First they did away with M-track [xx(]

Then they skipped the tinplate cars [xx(]

Then they skipped the country of origin [xx(]

Then came those funny pipsqueak motors [xx(]

What will be next

What we can see is a permanent change - from precious metal to cheap plastic (and that's what
I meant when saying "cheap china stuff" - cos "HARRY POTTER" or "THOMAS" have their roots
in Chinese factories by BACHMANN and HORNBY making primarily cheap kids stuff).

Well, all this is not Asia's fault - western managers ordered this cos its dirt cheap.
But if I had wanted such I could have bought BACHMANN toytrains - right from the start

So far the quality of M's latest US models (Mikado, PA-1) is excellent [:p] - and I'm
deeply convinced they do come from China. But why do they hide this from us, huh ...

Another thing really bothering me are our "plastic age" and those new motors - no good!
Marklins are transforming into Bachmanns - slowly but steadily.
So one can see the writing on the wall, indeed ... [:I]

Have a nice day ,
John

Well, you go to sleep for a couple of days and you miss the bun fight!! Boy, are there some polarised opinions in this thread. Anyway, I thought I'd add some quotes from Axel Dietz from an interview he did with Marklin Magazine recently, and you can all judge them for yourself.

"MARKLIN MAGAZINE: After 100 days as Chairman of the Marklin Managing Board, could you give us a kind of initial status report? What are the topics that you have been and are dealing with the most?

DIETZ: We are currently positioning ourselves to be successful in the future, and, of course, thereby often hear the question:
What are you changing? Must people want to know how we can cast the classic MarkIin tradition in a future-oriented concept.
We are frequently asked the question: Where will Marklin products be coming from in the future? Will they continue to be produced in Germany? My answer to that is clear: Development, design, and the core of our brand products will be produced with German know-how. In this area we are far ahead of the competition. here we set the standards, and that is why we are sticking with it.

MARKLIN MAGAZINE: MarkIin stands for quality work and know-how from Germany. Can users and collectors in the future still have confidence in the quality, or — considering the current competitive situation — must MarkIin. above all, reduce costs?

DIETZ: No, that would be the wrong way. We will not let our specialized production know-how out of our hands. The main production site will remain in Goppingen. Key technologies, as well as development and design, will remain here. Part of the production comes from Gyor in Hungary; there we have been producing top quality since 1993. We will increasingly outsource simple assembly work, or products that do not represent any quality risk in regard to the level of technical production. In this way, we can deal with costs while at the same time ensuring quality."

David: Latest intelligence by Granddaughter - dolly decoders do refuse MFX, still.
But she don't care ...

Thanks Zora ,

you're right, and I wouldn't exactly call this a "China" discussion - rather one about quality.
Still happy when I can find another one of those wonderful PRIMEX tinplate trains -
talk about excellent, long-lasting quality in the lower end market [:p][:p][:p]

And I'm with you re money - there was a time when not even track was available for me [:(]

You're one of our (alas very few) ladies, here - so please do accept my apologies
for some of my harder words in this topic. As you say - let's enjoy our trains ... [:p]

Well said/written Zora!

I'm not really bothered where something is made, so long as it's good quality and the workforce involved are paid fairly. What I do object to is paying "Made in Germany" prices for products made in China. If reduced production costs are the main reason for moving production overseas then why does the model cost just as much now as it did when made in Europe?

And more to the point, why are all those cheap Hobby locos modern electrics? I'd far rather a Br.110 or Br.218 to a similar standard and price!

In countries with Märklin factories or subcontractors where the primary requirements for Märklin product standards are fulfilled as stated by Mr. Dietz. In VERY clear words - it would not (have to) matter to any customer as she/he should not see any difference (maybe except a "Made in China" label especially to please our U.S. friends ). One would and could for example not see any difference if the Gotthard Mega set #29680 was produced in Göppingen or Györ.

Give you another example - you would not know or even recognize that this model is "Made in China" if it wasn't mentioned on the box. And even best, it fits perfect to my Märklin Seetal croc and ROCO Seetal cars!





Just secondary - not important for the "brand". This might for example be one of these "Holnung-Hornby" favorite models, especially for those in favor of political "Made in China" and alike discussions.



Why "funny". It's consistent - whether you like this or not. I know, you're still searching for your still unproven 50% claim! But that's probably as false as your claim of Märklin being your "Haus- und Hoflieferant"!

The difference between men and boys

is their talk about toys

(if I am not wrong ).

I'd worry about the chinese buying all the modern steel making equipment. sooner rather than later they will probably also have developed the engineering and precision manufacturing talent and infrastructure that they won't need engineering reps from the US or europe.
they'll start by copying designs outright, with no respect for intellectual property rights - and your company can try to sue them all they want. and some US corporations have also done just as poorly (GM) by firing most of its engineers and sending the work to India (after also having helped train and educate the replacement workers at GM U).
they PR china government intends to dominate the rest of the world, be it economically or if need be, someday militarily. they want to be the number one power in the world. if they were a nation of free people I might not be so uncomfortable. but they are a communist one instead - that is my problem with so much manufacturing moving to the PR china. I try not to buy communist chinese products when I can.
I've been in one of their steel mills, and most of the metal was packaged for export. the mill I saw was one of only about 7 or 8 that dwarf anything in the US or europe. the air was foul with metal oxide and smog - from the furnaces. you could taste the metallic tinge in the air.
the conditions in the mill (at least the cold rolling mill) were not as bad as expected, but other than oil mist and oily floors, not unusual for cold mills, not much worse than in the older US mills. They had many brand new rolling mills and lines. They are done buying the old junk equipment from the US from shut down mills.
Outside the mill labor was far different. no protection or guards for people digging by hand in pits or ditches - none roped off either. OSHA would shut down a US operation the second the saw things like that.
I didn't get the chance to go out of any large cities either (beijing, taiyuan). I expect the outlying areas to be worse. Parts of taiyuan were a shock to my american eyes, however, by the squalor of sections, the ecological disaster of the area (coal mining and lots of subsidence and erosion). as others have stated there is a know and long track record of some of the worst human rights violations in the history of man, especially in modern times, in communist china. and there has also been nearly ir-refutable evidence of them influencing US presidential elections, in the 1990's and even again now. for what, to have weak willed westerners sell them the technical knowledge to build multi-stage rockets, and advanced nuclear warhead designs - so much so that within 5-10 years they were able to make a 50 year leap. these people (bill and hill) put John Walker and his scurilous family to shame.
marklin needs to be honest with its customers and tell us where it is making things. the politicians and diplomats will not solve this problem - many are paid off. people with the wallets will. small bits at a time. maybe it starts with marklin, and becomes bigger items and volumes. I will be re-evaluating my future marklin purchases - to make sure that most of my major purchases from now on a european.
the only thing good that can maybe come from this is that as the chinese people make more of this essentially unnecessary consumer goods they will start demanding the same and gain more power and freedom, but the communist leadership shows no signs of letting this happen easily or at all. only enough for short sighted western businessmen to see.
if business leaders in the west were more concerned they would be doing all they could do to influence and change tax laws to make manufacturing more competitive here in the US and other western countries - not taxing manufacturing.

I just received a 72881 lokomotivschuppen bausatz I had ordered for mey era III layout. On the back is a "Made in China" sticker.

Let's not discredit ourselves of one thing. We have created this monster. The so called global economy has grown out of our greed to become dominant on the world stage and to get richer. (no i'm not a socialist ;-))

So if producing small simple plastic parts for Märklin is too labour intensive and costly for them, they move it somewhere else. We can't blame them! Today its China, tomorrow it will be somewhere else. Although China is cheap now, it won't be in a few decades. Their constant growth will propel them into demanding more and more.

With rising problems with Chinese manufacturers (all the Toy's'rus plastic stuff being recalled)for a lack of production control and rising transport costs (increase in fuel costs) don't be surprised that all items manufactured in China will also become expensive and the temporary competitive advantage will be lost. So what then?

If anyone, i would blame the former owners of the company for not investing into their initial competitive advantage which was the robustness and quality of the "Made in Germany" Maerklin model. They should of kept their niche market instead of going mainstream to compete with the other cheap plastic manufacturers. Just look how HAG manages to keep production in one of the most expensive labour countries in the world. Inovation, imagination, Technological advantage and most of all QUALITY.

I'm convinced, Märklin is a quality product, it just needs to be cared for and marketed that way by the people running the show. Global economics is a fact, and we can't change that.

What are doing the 1100 / 1200 workers in Europe , are they playing cards all day long ?

I reckon I am in Europe and everything coming here must have the country of origin marked.

David