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Offline Hemmerich  
#1 Posted : 28 July 2007 01:57:07(UTC)
Hemmerich


Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
This long awaited model has just been delivered and I would like to share same impressions of my model with you.

Physically, also indicated by its adjacent product number, it is based upon the E10.3 design #39120 which was newly released last year (mine is from the new 2007 production). So, no surprise that they both look very similar.

UserPostedImage

The CS/MS controls as well don't expose any difference (other than the different road numbers); light, horn, station announcement and delays are the same.

UserPostedImage

However, besides the different paint scheme ("std DB blue" vs. "Rheingold") there are some easy external visible differences, like the missing rails and support platforms for the shunting personnel at the loco front.

UserPostedImage

But there are also differences at the inside, maybe not very clear immediate but latest recognizable when comparing the driving characteristics of the two models.

UserPostedImage

Although still having the same part # (as well as the one for the motor) the motor control pcb of the new model has once more been slightly modified - which is the key part of the new SDS technology.

UserPostedImage

Driving with same decoder parameter settings for both locos shows the new model to appear at start slightly slower and a bit smoother than the older one (which is not bad either, at least for my model), but has a higher end speed at the highest speed step. Both locos at factory preset to a Vmax value of 225 and Vmin of 17. Power non-sensitivity is the same for both locos.

In summary, the new Märklin Rheingold loco is a very attractive addition to my other locos for that purpose (left side are the two Märklin models, on the right side and middle top similar ones from ROCO). Until now, besides performing their duty with regular Ep.III D-Zug trains, they are used to pull my Rheingold train set from LIMA, which will eventually be expanded/replaced by the soon to be delivered fine Märklin and TRIX Rheingold cars.

UserPostedImage



Offline laalves  
#2 Posted : 28 July 2007 02:46:34(UTC)
laalves


Joined: 10/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,162
Location: Portugal
What a beautiful model, kongratz Lutz Smile.

It looks exceedingly clean without the shunting platforms and rails. Very nice indeed!

Component count in the new main PCB has risen dramatically.

Do you know if Märklin will be doing something about the 2nd generation c-sine and its driver? I remember an interview with a Märklin official saying M was aware of the stuttering and voltage sensitivity in the 2nd gen c-sine and were planning to do something about it.

Luis
Offline nevw  
#3 Posted : 28 July 2007 02:56:15(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
Thankyou Lutz for this. I have a 39121 on its way and am looking forward to getting it.
N
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
Offline kimballthurlow  
#4 Posted : 28 July 2007 04:59:05(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,764
Location: Brisbane, Australia
I am very happy with my 39120, and Lutz's contribution shows the newer one to be as fine a model.

I congratualte Lutz, and all other prospective owners of the 39121, including Nev.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#5 Posted : 28 July 2007 06:06:56(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,771
Location: New Zealand
Thanks for your informative report Lutz. I think a 39120 will have to be my next loco purchase.
Offline steventrain  
#6 Posted : 28 July 2007 11:35:09(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,692
Location: United Kingdom
Thanks for the report,Lutz.

I have already order the 26540 TEE pack.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline nevw  
#7 Posted : 28 July 2007 13:44:21(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
LUt6z,
Which Rheingold Cars are you referring to.?
I had the Lima Rheingold set and I think that I may have made a Hasty decision in selling them. The 4228 is not a Patch on the Lima Set

N
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
Offline pa-pauls  
#8 Posted : 28 July 2007 17:17:25(UTC)
pa-pauls


Joined: 08/06/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,843
Location: Norway
Hi Lutz,

Thank's for nice picture's of very nice model.
I am waiting for my dealer to get it for me also.

I do see in the picture you have from you CS that the mfx symbol is on the
left with a black background and the one to the right with no background.

I also have this on some of my models wiht mfx on my CS but I wonder why it is so ?
Anybody know why ?
At first I think it was with black background when the model was "in use" but that ain't it.
Pål Paulsen
Märklin Spur 1 Digital, epoche 3
Offline steventrain  
#9 Posted : 28 July 2007 17:30:06(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,692
Location: United Kingdom
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by nevw
<br />LUt6z,
Which Rheingold Cars are you referring to.?



The 43850,60,70 and 80 will go with the 39121.

All four due August.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline Goofy  
#10 Posted : 28 July 2007 18:05:57(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,277
Have you tested the new loco with SDS motor against the old models with C-sinus motor...?

Is there a big difference by driving functional...?

Which is the best motor:SDS or C-sinus...?

Goofy confused
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline jeehring  
#11 Posted : 28 July 2007 18:18:15(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
Thanks for the report.
Nice pictures of a very nice model which is good value for price.
Yes,PCBs look very differentfrom one model to another.
I didn't succed in seeing them both together(the blue one + the one with Rheingold livery), I'm just wondering if front skirts are similar or diffrent....because of the delimitation of colors, it's not easy to see on pictures...
(Know hy ?.. What I like ont this lok is the front skirt going very low...[:p][:p])

Offline Hemmerich  
#12 Posted : 28 July 2007 20:13:53(UTC)
Hemmerich


Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by pa-pauls
I also have this on some of my models wiht mfx on my CS but I wonder why it is so ?

This icon replaces the previous indicator "mfx" and "<u>mfx</u>" and shows if the corresponding mfx decoder parameter settings can (light symbol) or cannot (dark symbol) be accessed/changed by the controller; examples are if the loco is taken off the track, if they drive with some higher speed or if they run on an old booster circuit (see also your help text).

Please note that you still might/will be able to drive/control a loco when this indicator is solid (which was the case at the time when I took the pictures).

If you try to change a loco's parameter while the indicator is solid, you'll get the wellknown and rather lenghty message. In addition, if you push the function menu button, you'll recognize that you cannot select and change any icon (which makes sense as well then).
Offline Hemmerich  
#13 Posted : 28 July 2007 20:55:21(UTC)
Hemmerich


Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by nevw
Which Rheingold Cars are you referring to.?

Hi Nev,

these (they were offered once in 1:100, but the new Märklin and TRIX ones - #23410-23413 - look way better):

UserPostedImage

This Ep.III Rheingold has nothing to do with the Ep.II Rheingold cars and Märklin set #4228.
Offline Hemmerich  
#14 Posted : 28 July 2007 21:04:15(UTC)
Hemmerich


Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by jeehring
I'm just wondering if front skirts are similar or diffrent....because of the delimitation of colors, it's not easy to see on pictures...


Hi Roland,

sorry for the dark picture (I didn't use a flash there).

The front skirts and their colors are different (dark black vs. dark grey). The E10 was undertaken numerous changes, including the omission (and later re-addition biggrin) of the rails below the driver windows and the corresponding support platforms between and aside of the buffers (which were removed later as well as the low skirts). We'll probably see all those different versions from Märklin over the coming years. [:p]

I hope the following pictures show the differences better; the last picture shows all four of these models (Märklin in the middle, Roco at the outsides).

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage
Offline Guus  
#15 Posted : 28 July 2007 22:58:44(UTC)
Guus

Netherlands   
Joined: 13/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,616
Hi Lutz,

Congratulations and thank you for the extensive report.

Are both of the bogies driven?It seems the motor is placed in the middle of the locomotive.

Kind regards
Guus
Kind regards,
Guus
Offline Hemmerich  
#16 Posted : 29 July 2007 01:33:18(UTC)
Hemmerich


Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Guus
<br />Hi Lutz,

Congratulations and thank you for the extensive report.

Are both of the bogies driven?It seems the motor is placed in the middle of the locomotive.

Kind regards
Guus

Hi Guus et al,

you're welcome. I'll try to provide you with valuable information as long as it deems suitable.

Yes, opposed to the ROCO models, all 4 wheels on both bogies are driven by the motor; i.e. as well those at the slider bogie. The flywheel is on the side of the motor control/interface pcb. Thus almost identical to the Re4/4-I.

PS: I think that the spare part drawings of that model family will also show up on the Märklin service web at some time (it is included in the instruction booklet, which is associated with a © (Copyright); thus I'll not post it here unless granted permission by Märklin).
Offline nevw  
#17 Posted : 29 July 2007 02:50:53(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
THankyou Lutz for the information.

I think a set of the new Marklin Cars should now go on order.
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
Offline steventrain  
#18 Posted : 03 August 2007 20:52:21(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,692
Location: United Kingdom
Marklin onfo that 43850,43860,43870 and 43880 will not delivery until October.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline nevw  
#19 Posted : 04 August 2007 01:19:03(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
Thanks for the sad News Stephen. Make a Nice Christmas present though.
Nev
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
Offline jeehring  
#20 Posted : 04 August 2007 06:41:33(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
Thank you very much Lutz .
I have my eye on the E10 Rheingold Era III with its so particular and famous livery
Nice to see them rolling among steamers
In early sixties was all the Rheingold line 100% electric or still some parts with steam traction , I don't remember .Particularly the northern part of the line So I have to verify...
Offline kimballthurlow  
#21 Posted : 04 August 2007 11:47:00(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,764
Location: Brisbane, Australia
I would like to agree with Jeehring.

Yes, if anybody knows, I would like to hear about the mix of steam, diesel and electric used (geographically) on the Rheingold in the blue/beige and red/beige era.

Here is a link that describes some of the train make-up, but not the different forms of traction.
http://www.dbtrains.com/en/locomotives/epochIII/E10.12-13

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
Offline kimballthurlow  
#22 Posted : 04 August 2007 11:59:21(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,764
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi all,

Lutz, I was wondering, now that you have both 39120, and 39121 locos, is it possible to drive them in combination (lash-up, or double-headed) with the Central Station?

I currently use two of Mobile Station, and already have a 39120. I am also waiting for the CS later this year, so I was interested, in case I also decide to purchase 39121.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
Offline kimballthurlow  
#23 Posted : 04 August 2007 16:14:09(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,764
Location: Brisbane, Australia
To part answer my earlier post, apparently the V200 was used on part of the Rheingold route. I am not sure of the geography or the route, but the Duisburg - Emmerich section was not yet electrified.

In this section, from 1962- 1966, diesel locomotives of the series V 200 were used.

See link
http://www.heinrich-hanke.de/ei.../rheingold_1962-1965.htm


regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
Offline nevw  
#24 Posted : 05 August 2007 03:02:29(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by kimballthurlow
<br />Hi all,

Lutz, I was wondering, now that you have both 39120, and 39121 locos, is it possible to drive them in combination (lash-up, or double-headed) with the Central Station?

I currently use two of Mobile Station, and already have a 39120. I am also waiting for the CS later this year, so I was interested, in case I also decide to purchase 39121.

regards
Kimball

KIm,
Should be no trouble in running the 120 and 121 together as a double header.

I have done it with a Swiss 460 and Ae 6/6. No Problems.
N

PS Hope to have the 121 in about a week. biggrin We could try it out but no CS [:(] as it is on its way to Germany. [^][:p]biggrin
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
Offline kimballthurlow  
#25 Posted : 05 August 2007 07:32:05(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,764
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Nev,
Yes it would be worth trying out sometime.

When you get the CS back. please let me know, and we might arrange for my 39120 to couple up with your 39121 and see how it works.

I can double head engines now, but I set the controllers (2 x MS)separately, and judge the speed as closely as possible.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
Offline Hemmerich  
#26 Posted : 08 August 2007 01:23:07(UTC)
Hemmerich


Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by kimballthurlow
Hi all,

Lutz, I was wondering, now that you have both 39120, and 39121 locos, is it possible to drive them in combination (lash-up, or double-headed) with the Central Station?

I currently use two of Mobile Station, and already have a 39120. I am also waiting for the CS later this year, so I was interested, in case I also decide to purchase 39121.

regards
Kimball

Hi Kimball,

Sorry for being late with my response.

Yes, you can do so but there are a few things to consider/change (please keep in mind that this is only needed if you have a #39120 w/o the SDS label; for the SDS version no changes are required):

#39120 is usually delivered with an exponential speed curve whereas #39121 has it now factory set to linear.

#39120 has some more slightly different speed parameter settings than #39121 due to the different SDS driver.

BUT it works (rather easy)!!! Smile

First I did change the speed curve and parameters (some testing was neccessary, resulting in a rather large number of useful data points).

The result is as follows:

Both locos were (automatically) configured and adjusted on the CS.

UserPostedImage

Then I added a MT with those two locos.

UserPostedImage

Well, the train can start now.

UserPostedImage

Which it does nicely!

UserPostedImage

Here a picture of the "test train" head (the measurement car, followed by the two locos and a number of blue DB coaches/dining car and FS cars (TRIX).

UserPostedImage

And here a small video of the double headed train taking off (my first try with ImageShack videos, hope it works). I quickly set up a small "C-track test circuit" - about 10m - just for this.

http://img531.imageshack...hp?image=hpim0387ny5.flv
Offline nevw  
#27 Posted : 08 August 2007 01:58:17(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
Thanks Lutz for the instructions and the Video.
Kimball & I can do some driving when I get the 121 ans the Cs is back from Upgrade.
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
Offline bmcrae  
#28 Posted : 08 August 2007 04:03:22(UTC)
bmcrae

Canada   
Joined: 17/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 970
Location: Okanagan Valley, BC
Thanks for the photos and video Lutz. Smile

Your outstanding review of this lok is tempting me..... [:p][:p]
Offline kimballthurlow  
#29 Posted : 08 August 2007 05:22:36(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,764
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Lutz,
I really appreciate the effort and time you spent on this.
Great pictures of the CS.
That is an excellent description of "how to do it".

I am really happy with the 39120 (which is earlier motor), and no doubt Nev will be happy with his 39121. We can now figure out the multiple running.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
Offline steventrain  
#30 Posted : 08 August 2007 11:59:51(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,692
Location: United Kingdom
Excellent video, Lutz.Smile
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline steventrain  
#31 Posted : 20 October 2007 21:31:28(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,692
Location: United Kingdom
The 39121 with matching coach 43870 is in stock.

See the picture on ebay click HERE
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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