Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline udo karl  
#1 Posted : 13 April 2007 12:05:10(UTC)
udo karl


Joined: 13/04/2007(UTC)
Posts: 5
Location: ,
Hi,

I´m new in this forum and I live in South Germany. Please excuse my bad english, because I had had my english lessons some decades ago.

I want to convert the AC motor of my 30159 crocodile (it´s the same as the 3015) into a DC motor with a neodym magnet.
The reason for this modification is, that I want to control the loco with an ESU Lokpilot 3.0 decoder with load compensation.

The problem now is to select the size of the magnet. If the magnet is too small then the torque is too low. If the magnet is too large, then the lamaination ot the stator will be oversaturated and the current will increase without increaseing the torque.

Did anyone of you gain experience with such a modification?

Kind regards.
Udo Karl
Kind regards.
Udo Karl
Offline nevw  
#2 Posted : 13 April 2007 12:31:44(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
Welcome Udo.
I am not sure the location but someone will tell you within 24 Hours the conversion kit that you need. On the Marklin.de web page there is a table listing the conversions. Why not go for the ESU MFX Decoder???
Welcome to the Forum
Nev
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
Offline dntower85  
#3 Posted : 13 April 2007 20:09:27(UTC)
dntower85

United States   
Joined: 08/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,218
Location: Shady Shores, TX - USA
Welcome to the forum
Since it is a crocodile I would spend the money and by a 5 pole motor conversion kit with the decoder form marklin. It will run much smother. For less expensive models I would just get a HAMO magnet, which comes in two sizes large and small I think.

That is interesting information on how a large magnet can oversaturate a stator.
DT
Now powered by ECoS II unit#2, RocRail
era - some time in the future when the space time continuum is disrupted and ICE 3 Trains run on the same rails as the Adler and BR18's.
Offline udo karl  
#4 Posted : 13 April 2007 20:51:42(UTC)
udo karl


Joined: 13/04/2007(UTC)
Posts: 5
Location: ,
Dear DT,

I think there is a misunderstanding. The old crocodile 3015, was manufactured from 1965 to 1975. There is neither a conversion kit nor a Hamo magnet existing. The motor is the largest flat collector motor, Märklin has ever built for a H0 locomotive.

If you want to convert the motor to DC, you have to cut the stator lamination and to put a magnet into the gap as realized in the controlled high-efficiency propulsion.
Kind regards.
Udo Karl
Offline steventrain  
#5 Posted : 13 April 2007 23:32:06(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,686
Location: United Kingdom
Welcome to the forum,Udo.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline Webmaster  
#6 Posted : 15 April 2007 00:12:09(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,165
I also have a 30159, and still wonder why I did not get the 36159 instead...

As you say, this is the biggest LFCM motor produced and there are no kits to replace it. In analog, this motor is a real power-sucker - when I put this on the track and started it on my sons analog layout some years ago, all other locos suddenly went much slower, so it is a real current consuming motor indeed.

A conversion with neodym or alnico magnets indeed seems like the only possible way, but what I worry about is the fact that this motor is so huge and current consuming that a LokPilot decoder might go up in smoke as soon as you reach speedstep 2 or so...

Since I have not done it, I cannot recommend how many/how powerful magnet(s) to put there... The problem is what would be the optimal for the huge 3-pole anchor/rotor, and how do you measure that? One way is of course to use thin powerful magnets and empirically measure the rough optimal values regarding performance vs current draw as good as poosible, but you will never get the exact "optimal value"...

I fully understand your question, and the problem, but have no answer... I would be very interested myself in a solution for this specific loco... I have a bunch of magnets bought especially for this type of stator conversion, some are real powerful alnico or neodym magnets, some are plain ferrite as used in Hamo stators, some thin and some "fatter" regarding size... But I haven't made a single conversion with them yet...

The motor is really big, and if anyone has a picture of it - please feel free to post it here. Otherwise, I'll have to go to my storage location and dig up the 30159 so you can see what we are talking about...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline Pianne  
#7 Posted : 15 April 2007 10:11:18(UTC)
Pianne


Joined: 26/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 461
Location: Bruges,
3015 motor :

UserPostedImage
Kind regards,
Pieter-Jan
Bruges, Belgium.
Offline udo karl  
#8 Posted : 15 April 2007 13:25:39(UTC)
udo karl


Joined: 13/04/2007(UTC)
Posts: 5
Location: ,
Hi Juhan,

I know a person from another forum, who made the conversion with the biggest Hamo magnet and an ESU lokpilot successfully. But I don´t know how he installed the magnet, because the Hamo magnet includes the stator lamination and the ID is not equal to the 3015 stator.

He told me that the motor runs very smoothly and the decoder does not overheat and switch off. Nevertheless there is also the Zimo MX64H decoder which can provide a current up to 1.8A and this should be more than enough for this motor.

I guess that the current will also decrease using the permanent magnet. In a first step I would compare to the controlled high-efficiency propulsion from Maerklin. I would select a neodym magnet with the same cross section as the stator lamination. For the thickness I would select 2 or 3mm.
Kind regards.
Udo Karl
Offline xxup  
#9 Posted : 16 April 2007 02:33:04(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,584
Location: Australia
Can't you replace this motor with one that is used in later versions of the crocodile? It looks to me like a Marklin experiment that was unsuccessful and resulted in the abandonment of the motor itself for future models..

Seems to be a lot of work for such an odd ball motor..
Adrian
UserPostedImage
Australia flag by abFlags.com
Offline efel  
#10 Posted : 16 April 2007 11:52:17(UTC)
efel

France   
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 800
Hi,

You may also consider to use a decoder for AC motor, such as Uhlenbrok 76200.
It gives excellent results with standard 3 poles Marklin AC motors without any modification of the motor, and may be worth trying in your case.

Fred
Offline john black  
#11 Posted : 16 April 2007 15:34:16(UTC)
john black

United States   
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Webmaster
<br />this motor is so huge and current consuming that a LokPilot decoder
might go up in smoke as soon as you reach speedstep 2 or so ...

biggrinbiggrinbiggrin
I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide

Offline udo karl  
#12 Posted : 16 April 2007 21:12:09(UTC)
udo karl


Joined: 13/04/2007(UTC)
Posts: 5
Location: ,
Hallo,

a lopi didn´t go up in smoke because the motor outputs are current limited and temperature controlled. If you teke a permanent magnet instead of the coil, the current will decrease considerably.

The results with an Uhlenbrock 76200 are not good. It´s not possible to have a good load regulation without having a permanent magnet and e.m.f.
Kind regards.
Udo Karl
Offline Hemmerich  
#13 Posted : 17 April 2007 00:22:48(UTC)
Hemmerich


Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
This one is just the right piece (I had mentioned it already in another forum).

UserPostedImage

Users browsing this topic
Guest
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2025, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.633 seconds.