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Offline Minok  
#1 Posted : 16 October 2006 04:01:14(UTC)
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Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,319
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Greetings all.

I'm finally getting into this game and have a specific vision of which trains/locomotives I want running on my eventual Era III/IV/V system.

Of the starter sets, the ICE starter fits that Era V slot perfectly, but I'd like to expand beyond the basic 3 cars that are in the 29790 ICE 2 starter set.

So I do find some non ICE 3 individual cars out there on some websites, but there seems to be an issue mixing these cars because of the specialized couplings. How can I get up to speed on which cars and trains have which couplings?


For example: the 43713 car or the 43703 car (1st or 2nd class) or more importantly, the 43733 restaraunt car - do they integrate with the ICE 2 starter set 29790 or are there coupler problems? If so, can those be overcome?

How does one make sense of this confusion? I'd hoped that least if I purchase only Maerklin trains, the integration would be simple, but its rather confusing to me. Help!

Is there a guide for this?

Or is it just :ICE1 cannot mix with ICE2. But then why sell the ICE2 starter sets and no good extension cars (resteraunt, etc) And why does that ICE2 starter set seem to have passenger cars without a 1st or 2nd class designation on them?

Here I was almost ready to buy a starter set, and now I'm rethinking the whole thing. I may just have to piecemeal the entire thing together after all as I don't really want to buy anything thats not going to be in my final layout some day, be it the controller, cars etc.



Looking at things, the ICE 1 sets have all the features I want: 1st class, 2nd class, Reseraunt car, and the old style engine-at-end system. I actually rode on one of these or the ICE 2 (saw the ICE 1 getting ready for service in the summer of 1991, and road one in Dec 1994). For the ICE2, the cars have no class designation... I guess I need to research, but that seems odd. The ICE 3 sets again have the 1st and 2nd class and reseraunt car (and for less than the ICE 2 starter set), but I've not actually personally been on this variation. So the ICE 1 seems right - but the price is insanely high compared to the ICE 3 and even the 2 starter set. Is this the mayhem of building a collection that I'm going to have to get used to? confused
Toys of tin and wood rule!
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Offline nevw  
#2 Posted : 16 October 2006 04:21:53(UTC)
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nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Minok
<br />Greetings all.

I'm finally getting into this game and have a specific vision of which trains/locomotives I want running on my eventual Era III/IV/V system.

Of the starter sets, the ICE starter fits that Era V slot perfectly, but I'd like to expand beyond the basic 3 cars that are in the 29790 ICE 2 starter set.

So I do find some non ICE 3 individual cars out there on some websites, but there seems to be an issue mixing these cars because of the specialized couplings. How can I get up to speed on which cars and trains have which couplings?


For example: the 43713 car or the 43703 car (1st or 2nd class) or more importantly, the 43733 restaraunt car - do they integrate with the ICE 2 starter set 29790 or are there coupler problems? If so, can those be overcome?

How does one make sense of this confusion? I'd hoped that least if I purchase only Maerklin trains, the integration would be simple, but its rather confusing to me. Help!

Is there a guide for this?

Or is it just :ICE1 cannot mix with ICE2. But then why sell the ICE2 starter sets and no good extension cars (resteraunt, etc) And why does that ICE2 starter set seem to have passenger cars without a 1st or 2nd class designation on them?

Here I was almost ready to buy a starter set, and now I'm rethinking the whole thing. I may just have to piecemeal the entire thing together after all as I don't really want to buy anything thats not going to be in my final layout some day, be it the controller, cars etc.



The ICE 1 & 2 Have their CC Couplings Connector Plates Running Vertical and the Ice 3 Horizontal, So cannot be mixed.

Ice 1 & 2 cars are interchangable.
Be careful,
the Ice Starter set 29795/4 does not have Interior Lights and I "Believe" that they cannot be fitted. However other cars that can be added with the set do have lights.
I had that set but sold it over the light issue and got a 39711 set and added a 43713 and a 43703.
Nev
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
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Offline mmervine  
#3 Posted : 16 October 2006 05:12:35(UTC)
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mmervine

United States   
Joined: 30/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,893
Location: Keene, NH
Minok:

The new Marklin ICE2 starter set (29790) comes with high efficiency propulsion and the mobile station which is a great way to start. As Nevw indicated, these sets do not have interior lights. These sets will have the latest DB paint scheme with the solid red strip. Marklin has released an add on set 78056 which includes an additional car and 24 sections of C track.

If you get an older ICE 2 set, it will probably be Delta and have the dual pink/red stripes. I have one of these and I am not happy with the motor and plan to upgrade it. Also, you will have to really look around to find the extra cars for this as they are no longer manufactured.

r/markCool
Märklin C-track, Marklin Digital & ECoS, multi-era French & Swiss
http://www.ete-ene.org/m...mervines-layout-gallery/
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Offline Minok  
#4 Posted : 16 October 2006 08:19:17(UTC)
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Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,319
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Argh! So much for simplicity.

Well, mixing ICE 1 and 2 does sound ok... if one can find the older add-on car. Having interior lights would certainly be nice... there has to be some way to fit lights in there in some way.

So what are the odds of Maerklin re-releasing the ICE2 set?

Maybe I just need to dig up an old ICE 1 set.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#5 Posted : 16 October 2006 11:35:20(UTC)
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Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,772
Location: New Zealand
Hi Minok. As mentioned in your other thread I have the ICE 2 Train from the 29790 starter set. The train runs well, in fact it can be made to 'go like the clappers', yet I've never had it derail. It looks good, but the 'horn' sounds more like a 'constipated cow' than a horn. As others have pointed out, it doesn't have the interior lighting like the other sets do. I also purchased an additional car from Hobbyco in Sydney, the 43713, which has the same couplings, but also has the interior lighting. I have also ordered one of the 78056 add on sets as well. As for retrofitting interior lighting, well there is no official Marklin kit to do this, but I reckon some of the LED lighting kits that are available off eBay may be able to be fitted, and powered from the rear car, which has a centre rail pickup. I just need to figure a way of passing power from one car to another........Hmmmmmm.

Why do I take this particular track?? Well it's because of cost. The ICE 2 cost me $NZ320 as opposed to around $NZ1200 for the full set.
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Offline Minok  
#6 Posted : 17 October 2006 10:16:37(UTC)
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Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,319
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Bigdaddynz, I hear you.

Looking at a complete ICE 1 set that costs 2x the cost of the ICE 2 starter set, makes me wonder. I need to do some soul searching over the next few weeks to see what I really want out of the train. Is the interior lighting really a critical issue for me. I'm not sure. What does bug me is that there is no class designation on the outsides of the cars on the starter set cars... is that correct? Seems odd.

My collecting goal is to assemble all of the train types I have personally had a ride on, which means ICE3 is out of the question; its gotta be 1 or 2. I need to sit down with the catalog, get my pricing spreadsheet together and evaluate what it will cost me to build the setup I can live with. As its a once-in-a-lifetime purchase ( I always justify such things to myself that way), I can say that, well, whats an extra $400 for the train, over 30 years of enjoyment, knowing you got exactly what you wanted. But thats easier said than done. Smile
Toys of tin and wood rule!
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My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#7 Posted : 17 October 2006 10:30:56(UTC)
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Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,772
Location: New Zealand
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Minok
<br />What does bug me is that there is no class designation on the outsides of the cars on the starter set cars... is that correct? Seems odd.
Smile


Hi Minok, yes you are correct, there is no class designation on the starter set coaches, which bugs me, but not so important as to justify spending the extra $$$$ (for me anyway). Cheers.
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Offline foumaro  
#8 Posted : 17 October 2006 11:40:07(UTC)
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foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,430
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
Wellcome to the forum.You are in a very tough "game".biggrin
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Offline jerdenberg  
#9 Posted : 17 October 2006 12:10:56(UTC)
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jerdenberg

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/01/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,024
Location: Den Helder, Noord-Holland
As to the missing class designation, wouldn't there be some manufacturer that offers suitable decals? If not, you could spend a limited amount of money on a decal sheet and print them yourself. Decal sheets are offered for laser printers as well as inkjet printers. Prices vary, but in the Netherlands I bought some for ~$5.

Jeroen
Figomima division, UP; mostly figment of my imagination yet.
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#10 Posted : 17 October 2006 12:21:18(UTC)
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Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,772
Location: New Zealand
Good idea Jeroen.
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Offline Minok  
#11 Posted : 18 October 2006 05:29:29(UTC)
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Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,319
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
I'd love it if that worked, but my fear is that the look would not be right. In a hobby, where the aim is frequently to resemble the real environment as much as possible, just scaled down, if I ended up with a coach that has a class designation of 1 or 2 that doesn't look right, could just be worse than no designation.

The class indicators are white on the glass, so its not as simple as printing a black laser printer image.. one would need a white decal, and if the decal is too thick, it just looks goofy.

Does someone have an example, having tried this?
Toys of tin and wood rule!
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My YouTube Channel:
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Offline Transfesa  
#12 Posted : 29 March 2007 12:35:09(UTC)
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Transfesa


Joined: 31/01/2003(UTC)
Posts: 140
Location: Madrid, Madrid
Hi Minok,

I don't know if you have already acquired any ICE train, I can remember you were interested in a 402 series but were dissappointed as it didn't have lights and class indicators, am I wrong? [:I]

Well, last year I was in your place and finally didn't bought a train from the 29790 set because it seemed too toyish. But in this year's news catalog there's a new 402 train in the original livery from the last '90s and it comes with a restaurant car and class indicators for a very reasonable price (less than 200€), so this time I really can't let it go [:p]

I only have a doubt about the motor type, as in the description it says "special motor" but it isn't a 5-star as the previous ICEs, but it can always be changed with parts from a digital kit in case it behaves too bad (I don't think so). About the lights I've heard that the previous ICEs with lights were too much power-consuming, except the C-Sinus ICE-S. I think it would be relatively easy to add some metal strips to both sides of the couplings (as the old models had) and fit the coaches with LED strips under the roof.

But we'll have to wait until autumn to get one and see under the locomotive body wink

Regarding the coaches, I think there's no problem mixing ICE-1 and ICE-2 even if they've lights or not (although lights would not work if the set hasn't got them), but you must pay attention to the different liveries (original 2-tone red strip, or new plain red strip). If you go for 36711 I think the second class 43721 and first class 43702 are perfect, but these are a bit difficult to find in Ebay. I hope Märklin re-releases any of these coaches without lights as a complementary set for this train biggrin

Kind regards.

Julio Castillo
Madrid, Spain
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Offline mario54i  
#13 Posted : 29 March 2007 20:15:45(UTC)
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mario54i

Italy   
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 303
Location: Torino,
Hi all, this is my first post

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Transfesa
<br /> About the lights I've heard that the previous ICEs with lights were too much power-consuming, except the C-Sinus ICE-S. I think it would be relatively easy to add some metal strips to both sides of the couplings (as the old models had) and fit the coaches with LED strips under the roof.


I have a 8 elements ICE and I was in trouble with power consumption of lighting, each time I turned it on voltage on track dropped noticeably and trains slowed down.
My solution (still under construction) is replacing lamps with white LEDs. Taking advantage of the good light diffuser of ICE coaches, I'm just replacing each lamp with a couple of high brightness SMD LEDs, mounted back to back and inserted in place of the lamps. I made some changes in electrical circuit, electrically the four LEDs of each coach are in series, high digital voltage allows it, and are fed through a rectifier bridge.
UserPostedImage
This is my first result: coach on the right with LEDs draws 25 mA from a 16 V supply (like a decoder function output), the other still with lamps draws 140 mA. I think it's worth going on.
Kind regards
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Offline steventrain  
#14 Posted : 29 March 2007 20:39:08(UTC)
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steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,692
Location: United Kingdom
Welcome to the forum,mario54i.Smile
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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Offline mario54i  
#15 Posted : 08 April 2007 23:44:39(UTC)
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mario54i

Italy   
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 303
Location: Torino,
Another question about ICE. I found that the ICE2 in start set 29780 is mechanically different from all previous ICEs: center motor with cardan transmission on all axles. Any experience with it ? Does it run well ?
Thanks

Mario
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Offline Hemmerich  
#16 Posted : 09 April 2007 21:24:52(UTC)
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Hemmerich


Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by mario54i
<br />Another question about ICE. I found that the ICE2 in start set 29780 is mechanically different from all previous ICEs: center motor with cardan transmission on all axles. Any experience with it ? Does it run well ?


Hi Mario,

you are right, the ICE's contained in the new starter kits #29790 have a different motor/drive construction than all previous Märklin ICE-1/ICE-2 models.

For those who haven't yet seen it here are pictures of the two different sets #29795 (first) and the new #29790 (second):

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

About the question of adding car lights to those Hobby models - YES, it is possible (and not very difficult to do). The only disatvantage is that the former special pcb for the steering car (Steuerwagen) is no longer available, but most to all other neccessary parts are no problem. You can then combine these ICE-2's with any of the cars #43703/43713 and 43723. Unfortunately, the ICE-2 dining car w/o dome with the single red strip has not (yet) offered.

Since the lights really draw a lot of current (I'm running my ICE-1 usually with 10 cars(!) which is still 2 missing Cool) I can also just encourage to mount LED lights in this train. You could even use the new Märklin #73400, despite their yellow LED's. IMHO more important is to retain the light distribution lenses which provide a more realistic illumination of the cars.

As can be seen the decoder is based upon the well know one installed in the TRAXX and Hercules locos (just expanded by the two sound function outputs). By mounting the same pcb with NEM socket from the TRIX product line, any decoder of own choice can be installed; including a sound decoder (loudspeaker must be changed in this case).

The class numbering issue of #29790 can easily be resolved by changing the window strips; repainting the dark grey front section into the correct white will further improve the optic view of this model.
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Offline mario54i  
#17 Posted : 09 April 2007 22:47:01(UTC)
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mario54i

Italy   
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 303
Location: Torino,
Hi Lutz
thanks for your kind reply

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Hemmerich
Since the lights really draw a lot of current (I'm running my ICE-1 usually with 10 cars(!) which is still 2 missing Cool) I can also just encourage to mount LED lights in this train. You could even use the new Märklin #73400, despite their yellow LED's. IMHO more important is to retain the light distribution lenses which provide a more realistic illumination of the cars.


I have the same problem, and I'm solving it this way.
UserPostedImage
I put two white LEDs in place of one lamp, leaving the distribution lenses. The last coach in the picture is left with lamps, there is little difference in brightness but current drawn from the last coach is higher than that of the rest of consist.

I would like to replace also the lamps in headlights with the new arrangement with LEDs of the 29790. Do you think it's feasible ?
Thanks
Regards

Mario
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Offline Ross  
#18 Posted : 10 April 2007 02:27:15(UTC)
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Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 945
Location: Sydney, NSW
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by mario54i
I put two white LEDs in place of one lamp, leaving the distribution lenses. The last coach in the picture is left with lamps, there is little difference in brightness but current drawn from the last coach is higher than that of the rest of consist.

I would like to replace also the lamps in headlights with the new arrangement with LEDs of the 29790. Do you think it's feasible ?
Thanks
Regards

Mario

Hi Mario,
Can you provide details of components used, circuit diagram and photos showing led placement etc. This is a nice mod as it improves the running and looks of the ICE, well done.





Ross
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Offline mario54i  
#19 Posted : 10 April 2007 14:55:24(UTC)
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mario54i

Italy   
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 303
Location: Torino,
Hi Ross
I'll be pleased to share all details. I have two coaches still to be modified, I'll take pictures of details.
One more question about ICE : what is the real arrangement of the consists ? first class - restaurant - service car (4372) - second class ?

Regards

Mario
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Offline Caplin  
#20 Posted : 10 April 2007 18:08:24(UTC)
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Caplin


Joined: 23/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,497
Location: Denmark
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by mario54i
<br />Hi Ross
I'll be pleased to share all details. I have two coaches still to be modified, I'll take pictures of details.
One more question about ICE : what is the real arrangement of the consists ? first class - restaurant - service car (4372) - second class ?

Regards

Mario
I shall also look forward for this! Thank you for sharing, Mario.
Regards,
Benny - Outsider and MFDWPL
UserPostedImage
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Offline Hemmerich  
#21 Posted : 10 April 2007 20:34:52(UTC)
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Hemmerich


Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by mario54i
http://fa.rossoalice.ali...60f0b09020ec2465901e.jpg


Hi Mario,

unfortunately I cannot see your pictures; the server doesn't seem to respond. Can you please check your picture url. Do other users have the same problem (I've unsuccessful tried it with IE and Firefox)?
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Offline mario54i  
#22 Posted : 10 April 2007 20:58:36(UTC)
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mario54i

Italy   
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 303
Location: Torino,
The url looks OK. I see the picture with either IE and firefox.
Regards

Mario
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Offline Caplin  
#23 Posted : 11 April 2007 00:49:55(UTC)
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Caplin


Joined: 23/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,497
Location: Denmark
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Hemmerich
<br />
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by mario54i
http://fa.rossoalice.ali...60f0b09020ec2465901e.jpg


Hi Mario,

unfortunately I cannot see your pictures; the server doesn't seem to respond. Can you please check your picture url. Do other users have the same problem (I've unsuccessful tried it with IE and Firefox).

I see only the picture published above (on 2007/04/09 @ 20:47) (using IE 6.0).

Regards,
Benny - Outsider and MFDWPL
UserPostedImage
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Offline Hemmerich  
#24 Posted : 11 April 2007 01:31:54(UTC)
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Hemmerich


Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by mario54i
One more question about ICE : what is the real arrangement of the consists ? first class - restaurant - service car (4372) - second class ?

ICE-1: 3xAvmz, Apmbsz, Wrmz, 7xBvmz
ICE-2: 2xApmz, Wrmz, Bpmbz, 2xBpmz, Bpmzf - Bpmzf, 2xBpmz, Bpmbz, Wrmz, 2xApmz

ICE-1's are currently being modernized and thus the car arrangement for Wmrz (#8) and Apmbsz (#9) may differ from the standard composition).

PS: Still getting an error message when trying to access your pics.
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Offline sudibarba  
#25 Posted : 11 April 2007 05:19:28(UTC)
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sudibarba

United States   
Joined: 28/07/2006(UTC)
Posts: 880
Location: Augusta, GA USA
A little off topic but I have the 5 unit 37783 ICE. Like Bigdaddynz I am amazed at how fast the thing runs without derailing. I added the add on car 43744 which has sound (horn only) and noticed that it runs 10 MPH slower at the same setting on my 6021. Not a problem but only an observation. I guess I was surprised it made that much difference.
Eric
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Offline Transfesa  
#26 Posted : 11 April 2007 13:49:10(UTC)
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Transfesa


Joined: 31/01/2003(UTC)
Posts: 140
Location: Madrid, Madrid
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
#29790 have a different motor/drive construction than all previous Mäklin ICE-1/ICE-2 models.

For those who haven't yet seen it here are pictures of the two different sets #29795 (first) and the new #29790 (second):

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

About the question of adding car lights to those Hobby models - YES, it is possible (and not very difficult to do). The only disatvantage is that the former special pcb for the steering car (Steuerwagen) is no longer available, but most to all other neccessary parts are no problem. You can then combine these ICE-2's with any of the cars #43703/43713 and 43723. Unfortunately, the ICE-2 dining car w/o dome with the single red strip has not (yet) offered.

Hi Lutz,

Thank you very much for your highly detailed pictures, we can see the differences at last! So I guess the 5-star motor icon in the Märklin 29790 description webpage is wrong, since it actually has a can-type motor. Can you tell me what are the running characteristics of each one, and is there any difference in their behaviour?

As I can see in your picture, the new BR 402 locomotive has a slightly different coupler without the 'dots' for the metal contact strips and the cable clips. Please can you tell me if the coaches in the 29790 also have this new coupler, or do they keep the old coupler with 'dots' and clips? [8)]

This really doesn't matter very much, as I think it could be possible to glue some contacts with epoxy to both sides of the couplers, but it could help keep the cables in their place.

Also, please could you post a photo of the interior of the driving trailer from the 29790? I'm curious to see if it has some kind of changing lights mechanism or if they're permanently on (I don't trust the icons any more [}:)] ). I think it could be fitted with some device similar to the one in the 4389/4390 driving trailer, including red LEDs as tail lights.

Thank you very much, kind regards.

Julio Castillo
Madrid, Spain
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#27 Posted : 11 April 2007 14:01:57(UTC)
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Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,772
Location: New Zealand
Are the clips available as spare parts? I guess you would also need some kind of sleeve to go in the female coupling, for the clips on the male coupling to make contact with.

Still waiting for my 78056 add on set, some 6 months later, though I hear it is not far away. Apparently they went on backorder from Marklin,
and since NZ will be at the bottom of the heap delivery wise from M (small market), I'm still waiting...
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Offline mario54i  
#28 Posted : 11 April 2007 14:53:35(UTC)
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mario54i

Italy   
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 303
Location: Torino,
Hi all
I don't know what's happening with my pictures, the Telecom Italia server sometimes behaves strangely. I put them in a different location, hope it works better.
UserPostedImage
if you want to see it moving (quick time file, 3 Mb)
http://www.webalice.it/mario_puleo/ICE_at_night1.mov

regards

Mario
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#29 Posted : 11 April 2007 15:03:31(UTC)
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Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,772
Location: New Zealand
Mario, your pictures can be seen OK, at I can see them. Just downloading your movie file to have a look at that as well.
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Offline Hemmerich  
#30 Posted : 12 April 2007 01:57:32(UTC)
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Hemmerich


Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
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Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Transfesa
Thank you very much for your highly detailed pictures, we can see the differences at last! So I guess the 5-star motor icon in the Märklin 29790 description webpage is wrong, since it actually has a can-type motor. Can you tell me what are the running characteristics of each one, and is there any difference in their behaviour?


Hi Julio, why should it be wrong? The description of that symbol is as follows:
"Digital Locomotives with high-efficiency propulsion. Maximum speed and acceleration/delay are adjustable. Special motor with electronically enhanced load compensation or a compact bellshaped armature."
For this model the second type applies correctly. This train runs surely better than its predecessor #29785, which only had a Delta engine. Yet, IMHO an ICE with high-efficiency motor, like #29795/3770/37711 or 37712 have still better driving behaviour (not even to speak about the C-sine models #39711/ICE-Sbiggrin). Nevertheless, it can be further improved by replacing the factory installed decoder by another one.

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:As I can see in your picture, the new BR 402 locomotive has a slightly different coupler without the 'dots' for the metal contact strips and the cable clips. Please can you tell me if the coaches in the 29790 also have this new coupler, or do they keep the old coupler with 'dots' and clips? [8)]


These Hobby models come w/o interior light; thus also w/o metal contacts at the couplers (they would be rather "fragile" for kids to play - maybe sometimes for adults too Cool). Another reason is cost.

Again, these can be changed to allow interior lights as well; besides the interior lights itself and the ground contact strips at the wheels the following couplings are needed:

- #395640 (motorized engine)
- #374340, 374060 (middle cars)
- #374060 (ICE-2 steering car, i.e. for #29785/29790/29795) or
- #395660 (ICE-1 motorless engine, i.e. for older starter sets)

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Also, please could you post a photo of the interior of the driving trailer from the 29790? I'm curious to see if it has some kind of changing lights mechanism or if they're permanently on (I don't trust the icons any more [}:)] ). I think it could be fitted with some device similar to the one in the 4389/4390 driving trailer, including red LEDs as tail lights.


There is not much to show since there isn't much at all! biggrin Although all ICE-1/ICE-2 set have the same headlight assembly (#574006), with model #29790 the front headlights are only wired to the white (i.e. yellow) LED. At the motor car it can be switched, at the steering car it is permanently on since the cable goes straight from the contact shoe to the LED (via a resistor on the pcb under the roof). Again, the icons are also correct here.[}:)]

If you want to have it white/red switchable you need to install the switch contact mechanism as known from set #37712 or simply a function decoder - which is what I'd prefer. wink
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Offline Hemmerich  
#31 Posted : 12 April 2007 02:05:41(UTC)
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Hemmerich


Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by mario54i
<br />Hi all
I don't know what's happening with my pictures, the Telecom Italia server sometimes behaves strangely. I put them in a different location, hope it works better.


Thanks alot Mario! I can see them now too.

Maybe it was really just due to this wonderful "Alice" (assuming they advertize their products in Italy similar to Germany - probably just different models).biggrin http://www.alice-dsl.de/...resources/gfx/header.jpg
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Offline Transfesa  
#32 Posted : 12 April 2007 12:23:56(UTC)
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Transfesa


Joined: 31/01/2003(UTC)
Posts: 140
Location: Madrid, Madrid
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Hemmerich
<br />
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Transfesa
Thank you very much for your highly detailed pictures, we can see the differences at last! So I guess the 5-star motor icon in the Märklin 29790 description webpage is wrong, since it actually has a can-type motor. Can you tell me what are the running characteristics of each one, and is there any difference in their behaviour?


Hi Julio, why should it be wrong? The description of that symbol is as follows:
"Digital Locomotives with high-efficiency propulsion. Maximum speed and acceleration/delay are adjustable. Special motor with electronically enhanced load compensation or a compact bellshaped armature."
For this model the second type applies correctly.

Hi Lutz,

Yes, you're absolutely correct about the symbol meaning. But I'm used to see it only in the 'classic' 5-pole DCM and Faulhaber (or similar) motorized engines. As I can see, the 29790 has the same arrangement as the 3684x locomotives (for example) and I guess it's just the same in this year's 36711, but all these don't have the 5-star engine icon, that's why I didn't know if there was any difference. Fortunately, it comes clear to me now with your explanation wink

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:As I can see in your picture, the new BR 402 locomotive has a slightly different coupler without the 'dots' for the metal contact strips and the cable clips. Please can you tell me if the coaches in the 29790 also have this new coupler, or do they keep the old coupler with 'dots' and clips? [8)]


These Hobby models come w/o interior light; thus also w/o metal contacts at the couplers (they would be rather "fragile" for kids to play - maybe sometimes for adults too Cool). Another reason is cost.


I know they don't have the metal contacts, but in some close photos of the 29795 coaches I've noticed they still have the same coupler with a kind of 'dot' in both sides for fixing the metal contact and two plastic clip holders for the cables. But in your photo of the 29790 locomotive the coupler is more simple (this means, a bit more difficult to add home-made contacts), so I just wanted to know if the coaches in 29790 have the old coupler or this new simplified version. There's no problem in case I have to change them finally (if I'm unable to made the contacts by myself), because you have listed all the references... thank you very much again! [:p]

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Also, please could you post a photo of the interior of the driving trailer from the 29790? I'm curious to see if it has some kind of changing lights mechanism or if they're permanently on (I don't trust the icons any more [}:)] ). I think it could be fitted with some device similar to the one in the 4389/4390 driving trailer, including red LEDs as tail lights.


There is not much to show since there isn't much at all! biggrin Although all ICE-1/ICE-2 set have the same headlight assembly (#574006), with model #29790 the front headlights are only wired to the white (i.e. yellow) LED. At the motor car it can be switched, at the steering car it is permanently on since the cable goes straight from the contact shoe to the LED (via a resistor on the pcb under the roof). Again, the icons are also correct here.[}:)]


Oh my... so the red LEDs are already there, just waiting to be connected??? I can hardly believe they use the same PCB than the 37712 with yellow and red LEDs, and they can't fit it with the slider conmutator for lights changing [:0][:0][:0] But this doesn't surprise me more than the fact that they just aren't able to spend some white paint in the locomotive front skirting, as Lutz reminded... luckily it's easy to paint by oneself, but it bothers me they don't pay attention to these simple details [V]

All in all, I think the light conversion of the 36711 will be easier than I firstly thought. Thanks again for your help.

P.S. Somewhere I have a Märklin catalog where a BR 55 (I can't remember if it's 37550 or 37554) came with the symbol of changing lights 3 white in front and 2 red on tail. Of course, this locomotive didn't have any red tail lights, that's why sometimes I don't trust Märklin symbols [:I]

Julio Castillo
Madrid, Spain
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Offline Hemmerich  
#33 Posted : 12 April 2007 16:00:01(UTC)
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Hemmerich


Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
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Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Transfesa
...but it bothers me they don't pay attention to these simple details


It's not that they don't pay attention to these details, it's a simple matter of cost. Leaving/reusing the existing LED pcb doesn't cost more, but having to mount the light reversal and wiring thereof is a manual work which is way more expensive.

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:All in all, I think the light conversion of the 36711 will be easier than I firstly thought. Thanks again for your help.


Please keep in mind that #36711 has a different light pictogram than #29790. The description also states "two driven axles". We'll see what surprises this train offers once it's delivered. biggrin

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:P.S. Somewhere I have a M�rklin catalog where a BR 55 (I can't remember if it's 37550 or 37554) came with the symbol of changing lights 3 white in front and 2 red on tail. Of course, this locomotive didn't have any red tail lights, that's why sometimes I don't trust M�rklin symbols [:I]


#37554 (catalog 2001/2002, pg. 56); this minor printing mistake was corrected in all subsequent publications. At least on their product web page, the symbols for the two locomotives you mention are correct. wink
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Offline mario54i  
#34 Posted : 14 April 2007 12:27:57(UTC)
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mario54i

Italy   
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 303
Location: Torino,
Hi all

another two questions:
my ICE1 3770+ 4370+4371+4372 has first class coaches with gray/light blue interior, second class with orange interior besides one (4372?) being gray. I checked on Railfaneurope and I would say there is no difference between 1st and 2nd, all gray.

Does ICE1 run with both pantographs up? at least at high speed ?
Thanks very much
My ICE1 refurbishment work is still in progress.

Regards
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Offline mario54i  
#35 Posted : 17 April 2007 15:06:55(UTC)
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mario54i

Italy   
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 303
Location: Torino,
As promised, this is my way of improving ICE lighting, step by step
This is only for digital operation.

At first I removed all electronics. I found that it was causing noticeable voltage drops. I replaced it with a Lokpilot decoder, maximum voltage across motor increased by at least 30%.
Function F1 output drives the coil of a 12 V relais which connects the light feeder (yellow cable crossing all the train) to pickup shoe, so that a lot of power is available for lighting without loading the decoder.
Current return is through the wheels. In this way lights shine much more than before but current consumption is terrible, ~150 mA per coach. Each time I turn on lighting all trains on the layout slow down, particularly the ones with C-sinus2.

UserPostedImage

Then I replaced lamps with white LEDs.
Two SMD LEDs are placed on both sides of a 0.7 mm thin pcb (hand milled with a Dremel). These are high brightness (&gt;700 mcd, 120 deg angle) LEDs in PLCC2 or PLCC4 package, beware of the PLCC4 padout.
The LEDs are connected in series, see the jumper between the two sides.

UserPostedImage

The assembly is placed in place of the lamp, but the lamp socket is used only as mechanical holder, there is no electrical connection between socket and LEDs (cuts on the LED pcb).

UserPostedImage

I removes the metal sheets across the lamps, could cause shorts, inserted both assemblies and closed the diffusion lens.

UserPostedImage

Connected the two assemblies in series

UserPostedImage

The supply voltage is now a digital signal with alternating polarity, I used a full wave rectifier and a constant current regulator, so that light is constant even with changing voltage on rails.
Connected the rectifier input to yellow and brown wires. If you want a simpler solution just use a ~500 ohm resistor in series to the LEDs (after the rectifier of course), otherwise, for electronics minded people,this is my complex solution:
a constant current source based on a current mirror.
FET BFR30 keeps current in right arm nearly constant at ~6 mA, which is multiplied by the mirror by ~ R2/R1.
If you put a trimmer as R2 you can adjust LED current. Why this arrangement ? It keeps LED current nearly constant with a minimum voltage drop. Here R1 = 10 ohms, R2 = 39 ohms, so that LED current ~20 mA
UserPostedImage

This is the result : five coaches draw less current than one with lamps

UserPostedImage

If you don't see the picture, try again later. It's the wonderful Alice, you can't disturb a lady...

Regards

Mario
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Offline Transfesa  
#36 Posted : 19 April 2007 15:10:20(UTC)
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Transfesa


Joined: 31/01/2003(UTC)
Posts: 140
Location: Madrid, Madrid
Hi Mario,

Thank you very much for your detailed pictures, that shining looong ICE 1 certainly looks great [:p]

Good work!

Kind regards.

Julio Castillo
Madrid, Spain
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Offline steventrain  
#37 Posted : 19 April 2007 16:38:43(UTC)
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steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,692
Location: United Kingdom
Great work,Thanks for the information.Smile
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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Offline mario54i  
#38 Posted : 19 April 2007 19:09:07(UTC)
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mario54i

Italy   
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 303
Location: Torino,
Thanks. All this is very harmful for my wallet. Besides the expense for LEDs, not so much, now that I don't have to worry about power on the layout...I bought another coach. Luckily at just 45 E
Regards

Mario
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Offline Ross  
#39 Posted : 21 April 2007 02:23:49(UTC)
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Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 945
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hi Mario, Thanks for supplying the information required to do this great upgrade.
Regards Ross
Ross
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WWW
Offline mario54i  
#40 Posted : 22 April 2007 00:40:49(UTC)
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mario54i

Italy   
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 303
Location: Torino,
Final test of my ICE
http://www.webalice.it/mario_puleo/ICE_at_night2.MOV
this is the best I can do with a camera. I'm pretty satisfied: bright and constant lights, no flicker, few blackouts (rails are not so clean).
Regards

Mario
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Offline Purellum  
#41 Posted : 07 May 2007 05:45:36(UTC)
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Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,528
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
The ICE 3000: http://www.mmrc.org.nz/mmrcG_ICE3000.htm

Per. biggrin

[Edit]Since the above link on the MMRC site has disappeared, I'll post the photo directly into Per's post. /BDNZ 12082021

ICE3000.jpg

Edited by moderator 12 August 2021 07:41:23(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Purellum
Offline Caplin  
#42 Posted : 07 May 2007 11:23:56(UTC)
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Caplin


Joined: 23/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,497
Location: Denmark
Very cute, Per
biggrin
Regards,
Benny - Outsider and MFDWPL
UserPostedImage
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Offline steventrain  
#43 Posted : 07 May 2007 11:41:47(UTC)
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steventrain

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Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,692
Location: United Kingdom
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Purellum
<br />The ICE 3000: http://www.mmrc.org.nz/mmrcG_ICE3000.htm

Per. biggrin


Cool site.biggrin
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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