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Offline DaleSchultz  
#1 Posted : 19 March 2007 04:50:32(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
I have been soldering up Viessmann kits and decided to share the experience... see
http://layout.mixmox.com/1/Viessmann-5291_kit
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline Rowan  
#2 Posted : 19 March 2007 05:57:37(UTC)
Rowan


Joined: 09/04/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,278
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Wow!
AB FAB!
That's excellent Dale, thanks for sharing.
Smile
Offline Lars Westerlind  
#3 Posted : 19 March 2007 08:49:30(UTC)
Lars Westerlind


Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 2,379
Location: Lindome, Sweden
Thanks Dale,
good pictures and instruction IMHO,
encouraging for those who don't think they'll manage themselves.

/Lars
Offline steventrain  
#4 Posted : 19 March 2007 11:54:51(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,697
Location: United Kingdom
Wow,Great work.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#5 Posted : 19 March 2007 11:55:28(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,775
Location: New Zealand
Dale, I've built several of these kits, and I purchased them for the same reasons you list on your website. They are fairly easy to assemble, and the instructions are in English, which is a bonus. Just don't get the zeneer diodes around the wrong way!! - and the values on the zeneers need a microscope to be able to read them!! wink

I've also assembled 3 of the 5290 signal controller kits, and these are somewhat harder. The circuit boards are double sided and the components are packed together quite tightly. You need to use a fine tipped iron, and make sure that the solder flows through to the other side of the board. The instructions are only in German, which doesn't help if you don't understand German, but at worst all you need to know is the German words for the various colours. The controllers I've assembled have worked OK, but they are not for the faint hearted.

All in all these kits are good value, but you need to have experience in assembling electronic kits, especially when assembling the 5290 controllers.

Thanks for your tips on your website. I can confirm that my experience in assembling the 5291 kits pretty much matches what you state on your website.Cool
Offline DaleSchultz  
#6 Posted : 19 March 2007 15:20:58(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
yes I have also done 13 of the 5290 signal controller kits and they are a lot more work. I also found the the parts were incorrect in 6 of the 13 kits !
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline DamonKelly  
#7 Posted : 19 March 2007 15:24:03(UTC)
DamonKelly

Australia   
Joined: 26/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,423
Location: Brisbane, QLD
A word of advice from an Electronic Engineer:

Those IC sockets provided with that kit are bad news...
They don't provide sufficient "wiping action" when you insert an IC to clean the IC legs, and they don't "stay clean".

I suggest you go to your local elecronics enthusiast shop and replace the sockets with "turned-pin" type sockets, or -- better yet -- just solder the IC's directly into the PCB:
The IC's provided are generally robust, and are very rarely faulty...in my experience (as an electronic design engineer) you are better off soldering them directly into the PCB, and testing the unit aftewards. Just be careful if you do have to remove an IC...

BTW, it probably is worth investing in a simple anti-ESD work-mat and wrist strap, since they are very inexpensive now...and YES, ESD does matter.
Cheers,
Damon
Offline DaleSchultz  
#8 Posted : 19 March 2007 15:55:15(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by DamonKelly
<br />Those IC sockets provided with that kit are bad news...


would it help if we scraped thge legs of the chips before inserting them ? It now too late for all my modules...!
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline DamonKelly  
#9 Posted : 19 March 2007 17:02:49(UTC)
DamonKelly

Australia   
Joined: 26/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,423
Location: Brisbane, QLD
Sorry Dale, I didn't mean to alarm you too much...
My experience as an electronic design engineer just said "avoid those suckers"...
Note:avoid...if you can safely remove the flat-leg IC sockets and replace them with "turned-pin" sockets, do so, but if they are already in place, then it's probably best to leave them there...
I work as as a Design Engineer, so I like to specify things right from the start...

If you have trouble with your IC conections try simply "wriggling" the IC in the socket.
Cheers,
Damon
Offline frankie  
#10 Posted : 20 March 2007 14:03:22(UTC)
frankie


Joined: 27/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 692
Location: Italy
Nice job Dale,
I have a couple of 5211 that don't work anymore, I wonder if you know what is the weak point of them since the cause is that I probably connected them with the power on, which not recommended on the instructions leaflet.
Alessandro
I have a CS1 Reloaded!
Offline DaleSchultz  
#11 Posted : 20 March 2007 15:13:40(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by frankie
<br />Nice job Dale,
I have a couple of 5211 that don't work anymore, I wonder if you know what is the weak point of them since the cause is that I probably connected them with the power on, which not recommended on the instructions leaflet.

No I am afriad my electonics knowledge is not that good. Open it up and see if you can see any components that are black or have that burnt smell.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline frankie  
#12 Posted : 20 March 2007 18:12:55(UTC)
frankie


Joined: 27/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 692
Location: Italy
I have already tried, it's not that obvious, I am afraid.
I believe the components inside are quite cheap and following your instructions it would be quite easy to repair them.
Damon, any hint?
Alessandro
I have a CS1 Reloaded!
Offline Bart  
#13 Posted : 20 March 2007 21:57:16(UTC)
Bart

Netherlands   
Joined: 13/05/2002(UTC)
Posts: 676
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by frankie
<br />Nice job Dale,
I have a couple of 5211 that don't work anymore, I wonder if you know what is the weak point of them since the cause is that I probably connected them with the power on, which not recommended on the instructions leaflet.

Do you mean that the entire module is dead, or just one output?
The latter is usually due to a blown end amplifier transistor (the 8 square vertical ones).
It's a BD680, which is a standard type that can be obtained thru any electronics store.
I fixed a few decoders that way.
*Bart
Offline Ross  
#14 Posted : 21 March 2007 00:02:57(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 945
Location: Sydney, NSW
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by DaleSchultz
<br />I have been soldering up Viessmann kits and decided to share the experience... see
http://layout.mixmox.com/1/Viessmann-5291_kit


Hi Dale,

Good article, but I would add to your testing procedure that the code for the k83 module should be set via the coding switches before powering on the module to avoid any damage to it.

Ross
Offline DamonKelly  
#15 Posted : 21 March 2007 13:27:52(UTC)
DamonKelly

Australia   
Joined: 26/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,423
Location: Brisbane, QLD
Frankie, I agree with Bart -- if an individual output is faulty it is almost certainly the output transistor. Make certain they are inserted the correct way round -- I assume the instructions show which way.

If the entire unit is dead, there are a number of possibilities:
* the decoder IC (U3/MC145027) -- getting hard-to-find now, certainly in the DIP16 package, but try an electronics shop
* if you have a multi-meter, check the voltage across U3 pin 8 (negative) and pin 16 (positive) when the decoder is powered -- it should be +5V to +18V -- I don't know the exact circuit, so I can't advise the exact voltage.
* double check the four power diodes (D3, D4, D5, D6) and the zener diodes for correct orientation.

And some general tips:
* go over all solder joints with the soldering-iron to ensure good connections
* check for solder bridges between IC pins
* check for broken tracks, or lifted pads (from too much heat when soldering)

Good luck!
Cheers,
Damon
Offline frankie  
#16 Posted : 21 March 2007 13:51:11(UTC)
frankie


Joined: 27/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 692
Location: Italy
Actually what happens is that they start to loose individual outputs one by one and in the end they are dead.
I am not using the kit so I believe, I should get a bag of BD680 and heat up the soldering iron.biggrin
Thanks a lot around the world!Smile
Alessandro
I have a CS1 Reloaded!
Offline frankie  
#17 Posted : 24 March 2007 11:04:12(UTC)
frankie


Joined: 27/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 692
Location: Italy
Gents,
you made my day, I was able to fix a 5211 changing the BD680 and with Dale's tester I rapidly find out a positive answer to my job.
The components are quite inexpensive and since I have 4 of them to repair, it saved me a lot of money.
I owe you a beer in Rome!
Alessandro
I have a CS1 Reloaded!
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#18 Posted : 24 March 2007 12:06:15(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,775
Location: New Zealand
I had a 5211 in which the BD680 output trannie on 1 channel died, rather spectacular in a cloud of smoke. Tried to repair it, but the damage had lifted some of the tracks. The other 3 channels worked OK for a time but eventually died. BTW, the circuit board on the 5211 is way different to the 5291, lots of SMD devices, etc. Do Viessmann sell individual parts, such as circuit boards and IC's? If so I've got a spare case looking for something to put in it.....

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by DaleSchultz
<br />yes I have also done 13 of the 5290 signal controller kits and they are a lot more work. I also found the the parts were incorrect in 6 of the 13 kits !


Yes Dale, I've been 1 zeener diode short in my 5290 kits. Some of the 5291 kits have had extra resistors and transistors as well. I wonder if I can get one with a spare circuit board or IC's......
Offline DamonKelly  
#19 Posted : 24 March 2007 15:34:53(UTC)
DamonKelly

Australia   
Joined: 26/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,423
Location: Brisbane, QLD
David,
You do understand that electronic components run on smoke, don't you? The smoke is circulated around the tracks and inside the IC's.
When you overstress the transistor or IC, you let the smoke out, and it doesn't work anymore.
I have tried putting the smoke back in, but it is extraordinarily difficult...

Electronic design engineers say "if the prototype doesn't smoke when you test it, you could have used a cheaper transistor!"

wink
Cheers,
Damon
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#20 Posted : 24 March 2007 16:54:46(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,775
Location: New Zealand
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by DamonKelly
<br />David,
You do understand that electronic components run on smoke, don't you? The smoke is circulated around the tracks and inside the IC's.
When you overstress the transistor or IC, you let the smoke out, and it doesn't work anymore.
I have tried putting the smoke back in, but it is extraordinarily difficult...

Electronic design engineers say "if the prototype doesn't smoke when you test it, you could have used a cheaper transistor!"

wink



[size=3]Damon, see my 2nd post from this thread - https://www.marklin-user...ault.aspx?g=posts&t=6518


Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Bigdaddynz
<br />
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by john black
<br />And at the end of the day (year 2525) there'll be an entirely new controller (powered by crystals) [:o)]



John, everyone knows that electronic devices are all powered by smoke. As long as the smoke stays inside the device, all is OK, when the smoke comes out everything stops working.

If you ever see smoke coming out, you need to catch it all in a bag or something and quickly put it back inside. That way you may save the device from breaking.

I'm sure that the law of smoke will still hold in the year 2525, just like the law of gravity........biggrinbiggrin
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