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Offline Rudi Bekkers  
#1 Posted : 11 February 2007 14:26:25(UTC)
Rudi Bekkers


Joined: 15/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 132
Location: Vught,
Hi all,

Last week, several times my MS refused to start up. I found the problem was that the 18VA transformer (the ‘ugly black box’) was not providing any power.

I decided to have a look inside, and to my dismay, it was not a broken cable, but a broken component. There is a little resistor (see photo) that is in series with the AC winding of the transformer. If I remember resistor color coding well, this is a 3.3 Ohms resistor (correct me if I’m wrong!). The thing is broken: when measured, it has infinitive resistance.

UserPostedImage

I’m not too much into AC circuitry, but did anyone experience this problem before? Any idea why it could have broken? A faulty component? Did not seem to have been too hot for a too long time (burned resistors look different – burned).

/rudi
Offline Sander van Wijk  
#2 Posted : 11 February 2007 15:45:17(UTC)
Sander van Wijk

Netherlands   
Joined: 20/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,248
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands; Göteborg, Sverige,
Never heard of this problem before... very strange though. Since there are AFAIK not many (maybe not more than 1) cases like this I presume it is a faulty component, instead of a design error for example.

I'm not completely sure about the resistance value since the Multiplyer band seems to be gold, which is a color I don't know the meaning/value of in case of denoting a multiplyer. (The way I see it, being a little bit colorblind, is Orange, Orange, Gold, Gold, Purple/Violet) I'm pretty sure though that the resistance value is a number with 3.3 in it, now we only need to know the multiplyer for sure.

Sander
---
Era I(b): K.Bay.Sts.B. and K.W.St.E.
Offline Rudi Bekkers  
#3 Posted : 11 February 2007 16:00:31(UTC)
Rudi Bekkers


Joined: 15/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 132
Location: Vught,
For the colour coding of resisters: gold is 'under' black, and silver is 'under' gold.

Orange-Orange-Black is 33 Ohms (this one is well knowm).
Orange-Orange-Gold is 3.3 Ohms
Orange-Orange-Silver is 0.33 Ohms

But to be honest I do not know about violet as the tolerance ring.... (or am I mistaking and is this not a resistor?)

/r


User is suspended until 24/11/2846 07:19:16(UTC) Bigdaddynz  
#4 Posted : 11 February 2007 17:02:53(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,778
Location: New Zealand
Check here for resistor colour codes: - http://www.williamson-labs.com/resistors.htm

This would be a 3.3 ohm resistor 5% tolerence, according to this chart. The violet ring is on the temperature coefficient ring, but the chart gives no indication of value what violet would be.
Offline steventrain  
#5 Posted : 11 February 2007 17:24:09(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,710
Location: United Kingdom
Interesting site ,very useful.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline intruder  
#6 Posted : 11 February 2007 17:36:24(UTC)
intruder

Norway   
Joined: 16/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 5,382
Location: Akershus, Norway
Thanks for the interesting link, David
Best regards Svein, Norway
grumpy old sod
Offline Charlie  
#7 Posted : 11 February 2007 17:56:06(UTC)
Charlie


Joined: 15/01/2003(UTC)
Posts: 707
Location: Texas, USA
Hallo Rudi,

Never seen that problem before. As a matter of fact, never had an ugly box go bad....

Charlie (looking for a piece of wood...)
Offline Rudi Bekkers  
#8 Posted : 12 February 2007 10:11:03(UTC)
Rudi Bekkers


Joined: 15/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 132
Location: Vught,
Seems like an uncommon problem then... Just wondering why that resister is there at all, in the primary circuit... First I thought it might be there to allow the 230V rated transformer to operate on a 240V grid. Then I had the afterthought that with 3.3 Ohms and 18VA, the voltage drop would be only around 0.26 Volts, not 10. It cannot limit current either, with such a low value.

Maybe this is a cheap alternative to a fuse? In case of a short-circuit in the transformer windings, the resister would most definitely blow away. But it would be weird to use an R as a transformer, or am I wrong?

Anyone out there with more knowledge of AC circuits?

/r
Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 12 February 2007 11:14:00(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,482
Location: DE-NW
Is it a resistor? Or is it a coil?

I cannot tell from the picture, but the green thingies inside M* locos with 5 pole digital motor are coils, not resistors (one connected to each brush plate).

Resistor or coil: with infinite resistance it sure is broken...
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline hmsfix  
#10 Posted : 12 February 2007 11:21:04(UTC)
hmsfix


Joined: 06/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,383
Location: Darmstadt,
Hi Rudi,

I don't have this type of transformer, but I suppose the defective resistor was in the primary (230 V) circuit of the transformer. Then you are probably right: it's a cheap fuse. This would be the only reasonable purpose I can imagine. At a primary current of around 100 mA (at max output current of 1.2 A) the voltage across the resistor is 0.33 V, or 0.033 W of power dissipation. That's neglegible. BTW the damaged resistor looks as if it has got a spark from the PCB board or an other device. Perhaps you could check if there is a loose wire or a loose metal part inside the box.

Hope this helps

Hans Martin
Offline Rudi Bekkers  
#11 Posted : 13 February 2007 11:47:56(UTC)
Rudi Bekkers


Joined: 15/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 132
Location: Vught,
Thanks all for replying. Tom, I have indeed wondered whether it is a coil instead. Also because I have not yet found what the additional violet ring is about. A saw a few sources on resistor color codes, designating this ring as temperature coefficient, but violet is not defined color there. (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/...i/Electronic_color_code)

Hans, indeed it is in the primary circuit, in series with the winding of the mains transformer. No lose parts there, though I did notice that the soldering of the rather heavy transformer on the PCB did lead to some transformer pins not being well making contact. I guess it was not a wise thing of M* to solder such a heavy component to the PCB, without additional strain relief. Then again, they are probably procuring it from a cost-effective source.... (which does not relieve them of their responsibilities, though).

Cannot see anything that might have led to a spike. But you might nevertheless be right. Seems something destroyed the outer pretective coating. For the time being, I shorted the component, and look for a replacement.

The 'cheap fuse' hypothesis is still the most probable, in my view.

/r
Offline Rudi Bekkers  
#12 Posted : 13 February 2007 11:56:46(UTC)
Rudi Bekkers


Joined: 15/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 132
Location: Vught,
Quick update - Violet also seems to be a defined temperature coëfficiënt value. According to http://www.okaphone.nl/calc/resistor.shtml, it means 50 ppm/°C.

Strangely, the coëfficiënt values there are conflicting with the ones Wikipedia mentiones http://en.wikipedia.org/...i/Electronic_color_code. (A difference of one degree Kelvin equals a difference of one degree Celcius.)

But in any case, it seems to be a valid coëfficiënt value so now it is even more likely this is a resistor (it also looks more like it; axial coils are usually 'rounder').

Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 13 February 2007 11:58:18(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,482
Location: DE-NW
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Rudi Bekkers
<br />The 'cheap fuse' hypothesis is still the most probable, in my view.

Depends on the material. I once killed a coal resistor with a M* transformer - and it was a long death (glowing red and becoming very hot). I wouldn't use that type of resistor as a fuse.

But it could be a non-coal resistor.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Rudi Bekkers  
#14 Posted : 13 February 2007 17:56:48(UTC)
Rudi Bekkers


Joined: 15/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 132
Location: Vught,
Hi Tom,

Was that resister in the primary circuit? It all depends on the value, too. As other have also correctly pointed uit above, in normal operation the 3.3 Ohm resistor dissipates far less than one tenth of a watt. And if transformer breaks and its primary windings cause short-circuit, the current will be so enormous that the resistor dies in a split second. (A full short would result in 70 amperes running through the device). In this extreme, it works like a cheap fuse.

/r
Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 14 February 2007 00:26:13(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,482
Location: DE-NW
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Rudi Bekkers
<br />Hi Tom,

Was that resister in the primary circuit?

You got me wrong: I plugged the resistor into the red and brown connectors of the trafo and killed it intentionally (a resistor from a damaged device (don't remember what it was)).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Hoffmann  
#16 Posted : 14 February 2007 00:41:03(UTC)
Hoffmann

Canada   
Joined: 25/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,106
Location: Guelph, Ontario

Hi all,

This Resistor is used as a Fuse, meltdown or blowout accurs when the Transformer is overloaded or to hot.

Here in Canada we use Thermalfuses to protect transformers from burning down the House.

These protection devices are common on most Electric/Electronic Appliances or Equipment.

Gone are the days when resetable Circuit breakers were installed in Transformers like the Marklin # 6646 which by the way has a primary protection Fuse (Thermal fuse )and a secondary resetable circuit braker.

Martin
marklin-eh
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