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Offline kimmo  
#1 Posted : 23 July 2004 23:37:26(UTC)
kimmo


Joined: 11/08/2003(UTC)
Posts: 397
Location: ,
Hello All!

During the past few days I have been troubleshooting a short circuit on my permanently mounted C-track. The problem was that it was not visible from the outside which track piece was causing the problem, and I didn't want to start tearing track pieces out of the layout in order to find the faulty spot. So I needed to do some clever thinking.

I decided to feed the track with 12V DC power, through an MRR bulb, and started to measure the direction the current flows in the track (this was the reason to use DC instead of AC). From the point where the power was fed in, the current flows always towards the point where it shorts, through multiple paths which the track forms. This way I was able to locate one track piece, out of about 200, removed it, and the short was there!

So if anyone ever has a similar problem, this is a good method to troubleshoot a short circuit in C-track from outside.
Kimmo
Offline rschaffr  
#2 Posted : 23 July 2004 23:53:32(UTC)
rschaffr

United States   
Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC)
Posts: 5,181
Location: Southern New Jersey, USA
Good idea, Kimmo. I'll remember that.
-Ron
Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/CS3/6021Connect/60216051), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051)
http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/trains.html
Offline jorge_vilarrubi  
#3 Posted : 24 July 2004 00:25:51(UTC)
jorge_vilarrubi


Joined: 15/12/2003(UTC)
Posts: 655
Location: Buenos Aires,
Hello Kimmo, I can't figure out how you detected the current flow and the point of failure...
Could you please try to explain your method? No doubt it worked and it's simple.
Thank you!
Regards,
Jorge Vilarrubí
Buenos Aires
ARGENTINA
Offline john black  
#4 Posted : 24 July 2004 00:43:34(UTC)
john black

United States   
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
Hi Kimmo:
Are your ground contact problems (DIGITAL-FORUM / 2003-11-14) related somehow with that short?

Best Regards,
John
I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide

Offline dikken  
#5 Posted : 24 July 2004 02:30:10(UTC)
dikken


Joined: 22/10/2003(UTC)
Posts: 376
Location: blankenberge,
2 tuf 4 my brains 2!!! Please explain, maybe with a small sketch. At what point do you measure the current? Do you connect a bulb over the track (i.e. in paralel with the short)?

interestiing but not very clear for an electronic novice!
Dikken

Check out my site:
http://www.modelspoorhobby.be
Offline kimmo  
#6 Posted : 24 July 2004 10:27:14(UTC)
kimmo


Joined: 11/08/2003(UTC)
Posts: 397
Location: ,
I knew that these questions would come. I first thought to write a longer explantion, but then thought it would be too long for anybody to read. But now that you are asking, a better explanation will follow shortly.
Kimmo
Offline kimmo  
#7 Posted : 24 July 2004 10:42:00(UTC)
kimmo


Joined: 11/08/2003(UTC)
Posts: 397
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by john black
<br />Are your ground contact problems (DIGITAL-FORUM / 2003-11-14) related somehow with that short?
Hi John,

No, the ground contact problems which I had at that time don't have anything to do with this short circuit. But the contact tracks did have. The faulty track piece was one of the tracks that I had converted into a contact track. One of the loose ends of the metal strip which I had cut under the track bed touched the center rail and caused the short. They must have been like a fraction of a millimeter away in the beginning, but now due to vibration or something they finally touched. Bad quality control from my part.

I will shortly add a better explanation how I troubleshooted this.
Kimmo
Offline kimmo  
#8 Posted : 24 July 2004 14:05:08(UTC)
kimmo


Joined: 11/08/2003(UTC)
Posts: 397
Location: ,
The below simplified schematic illustrates how I troubleshooted the location of the short circuit (marked with the red S).

UserPostedImage

In this set-up the track acted as a long wire, which connected the bulb to the power supply. And since there was a short circuit somewhere on the track, the circuit was closed and the bulb was lit.

By measuring the voltage drop between two nearby points on the track, I was able to dertermine which direction the current was flowing in each point, starting from the point where the power supply +-lead was connected to the track. Even over a couple of track pieces there was a voltage drop of about 2-4 mV, which was measurable. But an accurate reading was not important, just whether it was negative or positive value. This indicated the direction. This was the reason to use DC power instead of the regular AC supply.

So lets take this example. I first measure the voltage drop between points 1 and 2. It shows a small positive value, something around +3mV. An exact reading is not important, it still shows that the current is flowing from point 1 to point 2, in that direction. Then I repeat the measurement between the next points 2 and 3, 3 and 4, and 4 and 5, and get the same results. The current is still flowing forward. But when I measure the same between points 6 and 7, I get a negative reading, so somewhere between points 5 and 6 the current changed the direction. That is the point of the short circuit.

The same can be repeated from the opposite direction, starting from points 11 and 10. You get the same readings until the point 6, but when you proceed to measure between points 5 and 4, the sign of the reading changes to the opposite again.

I hope this clarified the method I used.
Kimmo
Offline jorge_vilarrubi  
#9 Posted : 24 July 2004 15:44:09(UTC)
jorge_vilarrubi


Joined: 15/12/2003(UTC)
Posts: 655
Location: Buenos Aires,
Hello Kimmo, GREAT!!! Your method is very clever...
Only a Voltmeter with high sensitivity is needed.
As a byproduct, we know a little more about the inherent resistance of the track. Only a few millivolts, but voltage drops from one track to another.
I think that a similar method can be used to determine how the track is working as an electrical conductor.
If we feed the track with DC directly from the trafo and move a strong load (say, an automotive light bulb) thru the track, we'll notice where the light is dimming, indicating a poor conductive condition. We can measure the voltage too.
I'd like to hear more opinions in regards to this topic...
Regards,
Jorge Vilarrubí
Buenos Aires
ARGENTINA
Offline kimmo  
#10 Posted : 24 July 2004 16:12:22(UTC)
kimmo


Joined: 11/08/2003(UTC)
Posts: 397
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by jorge_vilarrubi
<br />Only a Voltmeter with high sensitivity is needed.
I only had a cheap multimeter, which had a 200 mV scale. It was able to show readings with 0.1 mV accuracy. But the clever point in this method was that the readings didn't need to be exact, I only needed to distighuise between negative and positive readings.
Kimmo
Offline john black  
#11 Posted : 24 July 2004 17:27:24(UTC)
john black

United States   
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
Hi Kimmo,

many thanks for your great detailed report Smile! Be assured I didn't ask for just being nosy but I always enjoy it to learn from a professional. Being a real player I've never been that great a scenery builder but I love it almost fanatically to fine tune & service my layout's electrical and mechanical components (locos, cars, track, wiring & feeding, steering et altera) with (hopefully) everlasting perfection [:p]biggrin - my locos run almost daily so there'll be no "verharzen", perhaps the best excuse for an everyday player biggrinbiggrinbiggrin

Your excellent troubleshooting advice for track shorts definitely wrote a new chapter in the MRR's service manual [:p]!!! Please if you could place it in the service area of our forum web site - would be great advice for all seeking help, thank you.

Best Regards
John
I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide

Offline jorge_vilarrubi  
#12 Posted : 24 July 2004 18:37:17(UTC)
jorge_vilarrubi


Joined: 15/12/2003(UTC)
Posts: 655
Location: Buenos Aires,
Hello Kimmo, I was thinking about Voltmeter sensitivity... you can use a light bulb with greater power drain and it will increase the current, increasing the Volts difference accordingly, because light bulbs know about the Ohm laws...
Regards,
Jorge Vilarrubí
Buenos Aires
ARGENTINA
Offline kimmo  
#13 Posted : 24 July 2004 19:31:35(UTC)
kimmo


Joined: 11/08/2003(UTC)
Posts: 397
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by jorge_vilarrubi
<br />Hello Kimmo, I was thinking about Voltmeter sensitivity... you can use a light bulb with greater power drain and it will increase the current, increasing the Volts difference accordingly, because light bulbs know about the Ohm laws...
Regards,
That is true. More load you put in the circuit, easier becomes the measuring, as the values become bigger. But what I meant with my response was that even though I didn't have any precision instrument, I was still able to do the job.
Kimmo
Offline Lars Westerlind  
#14 Posted : 25 July 2004 21:16:55(UTC)
Lars Westerlind


Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 2,379
Location: Lindome, Sweden
Smart!
I'll remember that method.

/Lars
Offline cromarty  
#15 Posted : 26 July 2004 13:22:29(UTC)
cromarty


Joined: 26/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 47
Location: ,
Cool - good thinking and thanks very much for posting this on the forum!
Offline dikken  
#16 Posted : 26 July 2004 22:15:10(UTC)
dikken


Joined: 22/10/2003(UTC)
Posts: 376
Location: blankenberge,
Many thanks for your clear explanation. I will test it on some spare track with a selfmade short. Many thanks Kimmo

greetz bart
Dikken

Check out my site:
http://www.modelspoorhobby.be
Offline john black  
#17 Posted : 26 July 2004 22:25:47(UTC)
john black

United States   
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by dikken
I will test it on some spare track with a selfmade short.


Bart that's another great idea, thanks!

I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide

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