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Offline applor  
#1 Posted : 23 October 2009 05:15:10(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,768
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Hello all,

There are a lot of Marklin models, especially the early electrics, which do not have red rear marker lights and have never had them (that I am aware of). I am wondering as to whether they marker lights were not in use back then or simply the Marklin model did not have them.

Some examples - E04, E18, E19, E69, E60, E91, E75 etc...

Interestingly, models such as the E44 and E94 (BR194) do have red rear marker lights.
Of course steam locomotives which have been used throughout the era's have never had red rear marker lights, however the passenger coaches they pull would prototypically have red rear lanterns/lights.

Anyone care to shed some light on this? I wish to modify my locos to have the red rear marker lights but I do not know if they should have them.

Thanks!
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline mike c  
#2 Posted : 23 October 2009 05:58:20(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 8,225
Location: Montreal, QC
Some early (earlier) Maerklin models came with rear lights. In electrics, this required up to three light bulbs per lok face (see: RET800). The reverse mechanism had three positions, forward, neutral (all lights on) and reverse. Many steam engines had lights at the front and reproductions of the lamps at the rear.
As models developed from having individual bulbs for each light to having one bulb with a light channel to the headlights, many models lost some features and ended up having lights that were on only in the forward direction that would change with reverse.
At the same time, it became possible for some models to have a dual (white/red) bulb set up that would allow for the rear end of the locomotive to have dual red lights, either using separate channels (separate lights) or using the same channel (integrated rear lights).
As models continued to progress, this type of setup became more standard. Today, with LED technology, rear lights and complicated setups (lanterns, etc) are much easier to reproduce in miniature, making their presence more common in models.
If your model has the holes for the lamps, you could probably build in some LEDs. If your model only has the silver painted lamps, you may have to drill the housing to insert LEDs.
Whether you choose to adapt your older models or operate them as they are is up to you.

Regards

Mike C
Offline applor  
#3 Posted : 23 October 2009 06:20:43(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,768
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
With the models I am referring to, I own the model full digital variants. For example 37470 which has an MFX decoder and yet still doesn't have marker lights. There are other models such as 39680 and 39191 which are E18/E19 with softdrive C-sine and yet still neither have marker lights.
Are you telling me these models would prototypically have rear marker lights?

So tell me if I'm right on this - All steam locomotives should have their rear lights on as 'marker' lights if they are not pulling anything? And all electric/diesel locomotives should have red rear marker lights regardless of the era?
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline TimR  
#4 Posted : 23 October 2009 06:40:54(UTC)
TimR

Indonesia   
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by applor
Are you telling me these models would prototypically have rear marker lights?


Hi,
I think it'll be either for the reason you stated;
(though I don't know enough about these older e-loks - information is scarce)
OR
if the prototype DO have marker lights,
it might be that Marklin just hasn't manufacture the PCB (with available rear light output) and LED board with red lights for these particular models.

A quick look at 39191 parts database seem to indicate this model still uses light bulb instead of LED (same like Ae 6/6 or Nohabs).

So the reason might even be true for both of the above...
Now collecting C-Sine models.
Offline river6109  
#5 Posted : 23 October 2009 08:01:19(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,874
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
This has been in my opinion, from Märklin's side a neglectable part for many years.
Although the locos had dummy marker lights, Märklin changed or updated motors, details, electronic components, improved prototypical Panthos at a very slow time frame and marker lights must of been the last thing on their mind. Before the change we had cinus motors, mfx locos, digital locos, sound modules, close couplings and a string of other improvements, including Led's.
Marker lights on SBB locos came earlier becuae they did'nt need an extra light socket.
For instance my 3057, 3058 had been converted with marker lights by drilling out the dummy light fitting and replaced them with led's.
Roco locos always had this prototypical feature in all their locos right from the start.
I always wondered about this missing feature but it was very rarely ever mentioned by "Märklin fanatics", who excepted this vital part as a "not important feature".


If I'm correct the first locos produced with markerlights had been the Class Br 243, BR 143. (ex DR).
the ICE 3371 had markerlights, 3071, 3028 combined head and markerlights.



https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline applor  
#6 Posted : 23 October 2009 09:12:13(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,768
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:I think it'll be either for the reason you stated;
(though I don't know enough about these older e-loks - information is scarce)
OR
if the prototype DO have marker lights,
it might be that Marklin just hasn't manufacture the PCB (with available rear light output) and LED board with red lights for these particular models.


This is exactly what I want to know...

modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline RayF  
#7 Posted : 23 October 2009 10:28:50(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,870
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
The issue of marker lights has been discussed before, but in relation to coaches. Red marker lights are only required at the rear of the train. The only time the locomotive would be required to display them is when it is pushing a train, or running light (on its own).

It therefore follows that it is more prototypically correct not to display them at all than to have them always on when the loco is pulling its train. Before the days of multiple digital functions, it was not possible to have the red lights on only when wanted, so Marklin chose not to have them at all. Other manufacturers, like Roco, chose to have the rear red lights on, which is not correct in normal operation, ie. when pulling a train.

I stand to be corrected, but I believe older electrics, and steam locos, were not equipped with rear marker lights, and would have had oil lamps hung on the back when running light, as was the norm for the last coach or wagon in a train. Newer electrics like the E41 were required to work "push-pull" trains and were fitted with electric marker lights for use when pushing the train.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline TimR  
#8 Posted : 23 October 2009 11:53:01(UTC)
TimR

Indonesia   
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
Ray,
You got a point there.... most of the newer Marklin loks have red marker lights - but by default it's always on. You can't turn it off independently of the front lights.

The only model comes standard with excellent light arrangement is the BR218..
The BR 189 can mitigate this "marker light always on" problem somewhat as the long-distance headlights is switchable independently from the F1 lights - thus you can create the impression that it is running with front lights on and rear marker lights off.

Whereas all my SBB loks always have them on..

The whole thing doesn't bother me too much in terms of prototypical running of my models.
Just a pity that all these models with marker lights lack an extra toy...
(I prefer switchable rear lights as opposed to those 'crap' sound modules)

The other thing is if they can do it with the BR 218 - which is priced around about 209 Euro (incl VAT) or 176 Euros (excl); why can't they map the same function to all the other equivalent models?

Yes, we can probably rework the wiring... but isn't the point for Marklin to get it right the first place?
Now collecting C-Sine models.
Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 23 October 2009 12:54:53(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,442
Location: DE-NW
Hi!

With respect to the prototypes: I don't know if steamers had red rear lights.
I think most didn't have red rear lights (except BR 10).

I know that the Schienenbus didn't have red rear lights. Instead it had red glass disks that could slide in over the white lights. Therefore the M* model is prototypical.

The old steamers had lamps that were only hooked on. The trick with the red glass disks would also work here. The lamps used for freight cars probably also could be used with the locos.

During daytime, locos would only need white/red metal signs at the rear end.
Even in era VI this is sufficient during daytime. I once saw a BR 152 running solo with two metal signs at the rear end (though this loco has red lights installed).

During nighttime, locos running solo will need at least one red rear light (eras III through VI, IIRC this also applies to era II).

One thing's sure: no rear lights should be on (in Germany) if the loco is pulling a train.
Therefore no rear lights are (most of the time) more prototypical than red rear lights.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Renato  
#10 Posted : 23 October 2009 18:58:17(UTC)
Renato

Italy   
Joined: 19/03/2004(UTC)
Posts: 976
Location: Gorizia, Italy
Hi,

I think the lack of red marker lights could be prototypical.
I do not know about the models listed by applor, but the electric loco E40 at the beginning had 3 white lights (on both sides), whilst the later production series 140 had five headlights (3 white and 2 red).
This is reported on issue 5 Oct./Nov. 2009 of Marklin Magazine.

Renato
Offline Western Pacific  
#11 Posted : 23 October 2009 23:16:01(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
Joined: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 841
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
As a complement to Renato's answer there were some German engines that were equipped with an additional red lamp in the two lower headlamps, somewhat like cars that have the addidtional 5W parking light lamp in the headlamps.

Another way of doing it was to put red filters on the lower headlamps, an arrangement I've seen on Danish engines. An example: http://www.railfaneurope...Y/red-black/my1153_2.jpg

For those of you who have Swedish Rc, where the Märklin model hasn't got red tail light - it is the center one of the three top lights. On the prototypes, at least in earlier liveries, I've seen the red tail light being on even with a train behind. Earlier this was a traditional lamp, but it is being replaced by a LED array on all modernized SJ engines, or in practice most of the black livery Rc engines.
Offline H0  
#12 Posted : 24 October 2009 00:09:47(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,442
Location: DE-NW
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Renato
<br />but the electric loco E40 at the beginning had 3 white lights (on both sides), whilst the later production series 140 had five headlights (3 white and 2 red).

The E 40 with three lights always had red rear lights (two light bulbs behind one screen).
Roco has red rear lights with their three-light E 10 / E 40 (prototypically), but you can't turn them off (not prototypically).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline river6109  
#13 Posted : 24 October 2009 05:03:00(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,874
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by H0
<br />
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Renato
<br />but the electric loco E40 at the beginning had 3 white lights (on both sides), whilst the later production series 140 had five headlights (3 white and 2 red).

The E 40 with three lights always had red rear lights (two light bulbs behind one screen).
Roco has red rear lights with their three-light E 10 / E 40 (prototypically), but you can't turn them off (not prototypically).

You can with a different decoder and by changing the wiring.

regards
John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline TimR  
#14 Posted : 24 October 2009 13:25:36(UTC)
TimR

Indonesia   
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
Better yet,
the new generation Trix models came standard with switchable lights at either end of the cab.
No need to rewire or do anything else other than getting a 21-pin decoder and Marklin slider.
Now collecting C-Sine models.
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