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Offline oliver  
#1 Posted : 22 October 2010 00:36:13(UTC)
oliver


Joined: 22/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 10
Location: USA, N.E.
I just bought a brand new CS2 (60214) in Germany. It was from a dealer who sold it out of a "Starter Packung" (starter package). Since I did not want to carry the heavy 220V transformer, we cut the connecting cord from the transformer.
The cord is a center wire with a shield around it. The connector to the CS2 is round with 4 pins in it.
I assumed the 2 wires (center and shield) were the power wires. I connected them to my Marklin 6002 (52A) transfomer and it triggered the overload protector. The same happened with other transfomers.
Could the power cord be the problem? The unit did work in Germany with its transformer.
The Marklin web site does not show any wiring schematic, and is of no help! The manual is of no help.

Can someone help, please?
Offline Ian555  
#2 Posted : 22 October 2010 00:57:00(UTC)
Ian555

Scotland   
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 20,121
Location: Scotland
Hi Oliver,

Welcome to the forum. ThumpUp

Ian.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#3 Posted : 22 October 2010 01:10:51(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,455
Location: New Zealand
The CS2 does not use a conventional transformer, it uses a switchmode power supply. The dealer should have also sold you the power supply that came with the starter set, which has the correct connector.

I'm fairly certain that you cannot use a normal AC transformer with the CS2, you must use the 60va switchmode power supply. Contact your dealer, and get him to send the one out of the starter set.

However, I'm not sure whether the German switchmode supply will adapt to US 120v mains voltage, the supply I have that came from Germany is rated for 230v only. You may need to purchase a 120v version in the US.
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 22 October 2010 01:20:49(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,696
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Oliver!
oliver wrote:
Could the power cord be the problem?

Rather not.

If the CS2 goes on overload, then it gets power through the cord.
Overload rather indicates a shortcut at the track connection.

The CS2 should work with a 16 V AC transformer.

Do you have a DC power supply you can test the CS2 with?
The power supply in the starter set provides 19 V DC (18 through 22 V DC should do for a test - a laptop power supply maybe?).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#5 Posted : 22 October 2010 02:04:37(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,455
Location: New Zealand
H0 wrote:
The CS2 should work with a 16 V AC transformer.


With the proper 4 pin cable?
Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 22 October 2010 02:29:48(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,696
Location: DE-NW
Bigdaddynz wrote:
H0 wrote:
The CS2 should work with a 16 V AC transformer.

With the proper 4 pin cable?

Two pole cable with four pin plug to allow higher currents (or maybe just a new trick to stop people from buying cheap laptop power supplies).
The appropriate cable is available as a spare part from Märklin.
Instead of cutting off the cable from the power supply, the dealer should have ordered that spare part (power supply could have been sold separately on eBay).

Spare part 120722 should be the correct cable. The Märklin shop doesn't know this part, but ETS has it on stock.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline arconell  
#7 Posted : 22 October 2010 03:20:59(UTC)
arconell


Joined: 27/07/2010(UTC)
Posts: 174
Location: Kreis Kleve, Germany
Hi Oliver,

60214 does work with any 16V output safety (seperated windings) transformer like the 6002. However it could be that the 4 pin plug uses one set of pins for AC/transformer supplies and the other set for DC switchmode supplies. In your case the power supply that was cut-off most likely would have been a DC supply since if it had been a transformer, the cable would have had a 2-pole plug at the other end.

Use an ohmmeter to check what wire is connected to which pin and hook up a DC power supply as Tom suggests.

Robert
Offline hemau  
#8 Posted : 24 October 2010 00:37:29(UTC)
hemau


Joined: 09/01/2007(UTC)
Posts: 589
Location: The Netherlands
And we're talking about reducing (adminstrative) burdens form government? Which #$%^^& thougth about using an 4 plug connection for connecting a simple 18-22 V power supply to any appliance? This is rediculous!

Am I happy with my CS1R which can be fead with any power source of the right voltage. Mr. Volt himself would turn in his grave as we say.

I'm writing this awaiting two MS1's from Sweden to update them with my CS1 which is no longer supported by Marklin to be able to use them with the Marklin featured CS2 which is said to be able to connect to MS1. Are you still there????
C and M track; CS1R and 2 MS
Offline arconell  
#9 Posted : 24 October 2010 03:19:28(UTC)
arconell


Joined: 27/07/2010(UTC)
Posts: 174
Location: Kreis Kleve, Germany
Hi Hemau,

Hold your horses! You´re barking up the wrong tree here...
Anyway, it is not a matter of just connecting a simple power supply but giving the user a choice between a transformer producing an unstabilised AC output or a switched-mode power supply producing a stabilised DC output.
Since the 60214 built-in booster itself is not stabilised (meaning that the more trains you run off that booster the more the track voltage will drop), feeding it with a stabilised power supply will also stabilise the booster output.
As a direct result you need separate power input circuitry and thus separate physical inputs for each kind (AC or DC) power supply. That is if you want to do a proper job.

So you see, Signore Alessandro Volta would be very pleased indeed with this development even though he himself has never been aware of AC and its meaning for generating electric current.

Certainly, Märklin doesn´t do a great job explaining these backgrounds in sufficient detail for the average layman to understand the difference but than again I don´t know of any car manufacturer explaining the principle of the internal combustion engine either.

Have a nice weekend, Robert
Offline hemau  
#10 Posted : 24 October 2010 13:03:35(UTC)
hemau


Joined: 09/01/2007(UTC)
Posts: 589
Location: The Netherlands
Hi Robert,
A CS1 features the choice of a unstabilised AC input or a stabilized DC input with one and the same input connector. So I don't see why separate power input circuitry is neccessary to do a proper job. Or is the CS1 at this time regarded as not being a proper job anymore? It works fine with an output of up to 4A and with the stabilised feed there is no dropping of the track voltage anymore (with a AC 60 VA input, track voltage could drop to less than 16 V as indicated on the CS screen).
Kind regards, Henk.
C and M track; CS1R and 2 MS
Offline charles Sharpe  
#11 Posted : 24 October 2010 13:34:44(UTC)
charles Sharpe


Joined: 21/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,430
Location: NORFOLK UK
Hello.

As this thread is about power/CS2 I hope you don't mind if I ask this question. I have a CS2 model no 60213 and I am using a 60052 transformer to power it is this right. The trans is used only for the CS2.

Charles.
CHARLES SHARPE
Offline arconell  
#12 Posted : 24 October 2010 14:55:53(UTC)
arconell


Joined: 27/07/2010(UTC)
Posts: 174
Location: Kreis Kleve, Germany
Hi Henk, Charles,

@Charles
No problem at all, it will work fine so long as you don´t run it up to its max. load. If you do you might notice the voltage drop either on the screen or through slower loco´s or dimmed lights etc. But it will still run and you can´t damage anything that way.

@Henk,

A proper job means in this case that when you run DC through an AC input you run it through a diode bridge. De diode bridge will conduct the DC but not without loosing some 0,2 Volt through each of the conducting diodes. (across the P/N boundaries). Now if you go through the trouble of making a highly efficient switched-mode power supply in the first place you don´t want to immediately loose part of that efficiency again by unnecessarily running its output through a rectifier bridge.

Best regards, Robert
Offline charles Sharpe  
#13 Posted : 24 October 2010 15:37:46(UTC)
charles Sharpe


Joined: 21/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,430
Location: NORFOLK UK
Hello Robert.

What would you call running at it's max and if so what could be done. My middle level on my layout is run by the CS2/ own trans and on that level are 2 loks steam with 4 coaches with lights in them and 2 more loks with just there lights on and a 5 coached loko that goes from lower level right up to the top level so it woul pass through the mid level.

Regards Charles.
CHARLES SHARPE
Offline arconell  
#14 Posted : 24 October 2010 17:41:18(UTC)
arconell


Joined: 27/07/2010(UTC)
Posts: 174
Location: Kreis Kleve, Germany
Hi Charles,

If everything runs to your satisfaction, there is no need to change anything. How many loco´s and/or coaches will constitute the max. load depends on the "fuel consumption" of these loco and coaches, how fast you drive them, whether the coaches have LED´s or bulbs, etc.

Regards Robert
Offline charles Sharpe  
#15 Posted : 24 October 2010 20:25:55(UTC)
charles Sharpe


Joined: 21/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,430
Location: NORFOLK UK
Hello Robert.

Please read my thread in the HO section on Running Trains.

Charles.
CHARLES SHARPE
Offline oliver  
#16 Posted : 25 October 2010 04:42:17(UTC)
oliver


Joined: 22/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 10
Location: USA, N.E.
Thanks for the overwhelming response to my problem - and the mystery is resolved.
Here is what I did: As suggested I took my laptop power supply and connected the wire to it! It worked, the CS2 booted up properly and recognized the loco, and it did run. Apparently two of the 4 pins are for DC power, the other two for AC. I am trying to order the AC cable 120722 no dealer knows about!
I have not connected the CS2 to my rather large layout because I don't know what the power supply's output it. But I will try it, maybe first a small oval, then moving up to the layout, which is M-track.

This is my first attempt at full digital though I had a Delta system with a few locos. I am primarily collecting vintage Marklin.

With the CS2 I also bought a Roco loco (#69284 DB 03, AC for Marklin) with sound (ESU). A beautiful model. It runs back and forth, lights go on and off - but so far no sound (it worked at the dealer). I have to work on it and try to figure it out.

Again thanks for all your helpful comments. If Marklin would be more transparent even they could be helpful!

Edited by user 25 October 2010 17:24:33(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline GSRR  
#17 Posted : 25 October 2010 05:24:47(UTC)
GSRR

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,339
Location: USA
Oliver,

are you familiar with the Marklin Digital Newsletter? If not it could be of some help in the future, along with some very helpful people here on the forum.


https://www.marklin-user...aspx?g=posts&t=17004



regards,


Thomas

ETE UserPostedImage ECoS iTrain TouchCab C-Gleis German Era Id & IIIb USA Era IIIb SBB Era III SJ Era IV GC Era V
Offline GSRR  
#18 Posted : 25 October 2010 05:33:19(UTC)
GSRR

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,339
Location: USA
Also since you have already used a laptop power supply you might be interested in this.

switched mode power supply SMPS

https://www.marklin-user...aspx?g=posts&t=17077

The new Marklin 60061 60 VA Switched Mode Power Pack is 230 Volts, there is not a 120 Volt version available for North America.




r/Thomas



ETE UserPostedImage ECoS iTrain TouchCab C-Gleis German Era Id & IIIb USA Era IIIb SBB Era III SJ Era IV GC Era V
Offline sudibarba  
#19 Posted : 26 October 2010 02:53:10(UTC)
sudibarba

United States   
Joined: 28/07/2006(UTC)
Posts: 876
Location: Augusta, GA USA
GSRR wrote:
Also since you have already used a laptop power supply you might be interested in this.

switched mode power supply SMPS

https://www.marklin-user...aspx?g=posts&t=17077

The new Marklin 60061 60 VA Switched Mode Power Pack is 230 Volts, there is not a 120 Volt version available for North America.




r/Thomas






Will the CS2 accept (pass through) more power than the marklin power supplie provide? I thought there
was something that limited the output where as one of the advantages of the ESU controller was that it delivered more.
Eric
Offline GSRR  
#20 Posted : 26 October 2010 03:28:39(UTC)
GSRR

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,339
Location: USA
sudibarba wrote:
GSRR wrote:
Also since you have already used a laptop power supply you might be interested in this.

switched mode power supply SMPS

https://www.marklin-user...aspx?g=posts&t=17077

The new Marklin 60061 60 VA Switched Mode Power Pack is 230 Volts, there is not a 120 Volt version available for North America.




r/Thomas






Will the CS2 accept (pass through) more power than the marklin power supplie provide? I thought there
was something that limited the output where as one of the advantages of the ESU controller was that it delivered more.
Eric



Hi Eric,

I would say no, someone may say different, in terms of going through the CS2 to the track. Using a booster from Littfinski DatenTechnik (LDT) for example the DB4, there is the option of putting 2.5 ampere or 4.5 ampere to the isolated booster track. What I was pointing out really is that for those of us who do not use 230 Volts, Marklin has yet to introduce a SMP transformer. Since the SMP has advantages over the older style transformers there is the option of going with the alternative unit that I described. These are widely available on the internet or even from
"You-do-it" Electronics Center in Needham, MA.

http://www.youdoitelectr...rs/compactswitching.html


http://www.youdoitelectronics.com/id525.htm


regards,

Thomas




ETE UserPostedImage ECoS iTrain TouchCab C-Gleis German Era Id & IIIb USA Era IIIb SBB Era III SJ Era IV GC Era V
Offline sudibarba  
#21 Posted : 26 October 2010 17:47:01(UTC)
sudibarba

United States   
Joined: 28/07/2006(UTC)
Posts: 876
Location: Augusta, GA USA
GSRR wrote:
sudibarba wrote:
GSRR wrote:
Also since you have already used a laptop power supply you might be interested in this.

switched mode power supply SMPS

https://www.marklin-user...aspx?g=posts&t=17077

The new Marklin 60061 60 VA Switched Mode Power Pack is 230 Volts, there is not a 120 Volt version available for North America.




r/Thomas






Will the CS2 accept (pass through) more power than the marklin power supplie provide? I thought there
was something that limited the output where as one of the advantages of the ESU controller was that it delivered more.
Eric



Hi Eric,

I would say no, someone may say different, in terms of going through the CS2 to the track. Using a booster from Littfinski DatenTechnik (LDT) for example the DB4, there is the option of putting 2.5 ampere or 4.5 ampere to the isolated booster track. What I was pointing out really is that for those of us who do not use 230 Volts, Marklin has yet to introduce a SMP transformer. Since the SMP has advantages over the older style transformers there is the option of going with the alternative unit that I described. These are widely available on the internet or even from
"You-do-it" Electronics Center in Needham, MA.

http://www.youdoitelectr...rs/compactswitching.html


http://www.youdoitelectronics.com/id525.htm


regards,

Thomas






Love that store - I go there 4 or 5 times a year.

Eric
Offline frankie  
#22 Posted : 26 October 2010 18:56:49(UTC)
frankie


Joined: 27/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 692
Location: Italy
GSRR wrote:
Also since you have already used a laptop power supply you might be interested in this.

switched mode power supply SMPS

https://www.marklin-user...aspx?g=posts&t=17077

The new Marklin 60061 60 VA Switched Mode Power Pack is 230 Volts, there is not a 120 Volt version available for North America.




r/Thomas




Which is quite strange, because most if not all laptop power supplies nowadays work seamlessy on both voltage across the pond...
Alessandro
I have a CS1 Reloaded!
Offline GSRR  
#23 Posted : 26 October 2010 21:48:18(UTC)
GSRR

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,339
Location: USA
sudibarba wrote:
GSRR wrote:
sudibarba wrote:
GSRR wrote:
Also since you have already used a laptop power supply you might be interested in this.

switched mode power supply SMPS

https://www.marklin-user...aspx?g=posts&t=17077

The new Marklin 60061 60 VA Switched Mode Power Pack is 230 Volts, there is not a 120 Volt version available for North America.




r/Thomas






Will the CS2 accept (pass through) more power than the marklin power supplie provide? I thought there
was something that limited the output where as one of the advantages of the ESU controller was that it delivered more.
Eric



Hi Eric,

I would say no, someone may say different, in terms of going through the CS2 to the track. Using a booster from Littfinski DatenTechnik (LDT) for example the DB4, there is the option of putting 2.5 ampere or 4.5 ampere to the isolated booster track. What I was pointing out really is that for those of us who do not use 230 Volts, Marklin has yet to introduce a SMP transformer. Since the SMP has advantages over the older style transformers there is the option of going with the alternative unit that I described. These are widely available on the internet or even from
"You-do-it" Electronics Center in Needham, MA.

http://www.youdoitelectr...rs/compactswitching.html


http://www.youdoitelectronics.com/id525.htm


regards,

Thomas






Love that store - I go there 4 or 5 times a year.

Eric



Eric,

definitely a lot of neat stuff there.


Thomas

ETE UserPostedImage ECoS iTrain TouchCab C-Gleis German Era Id & IIIb USA Era IIIb SBB Era III SJ Era IV GC Era V
Offline GSRR  
#24 Posted : 26 October 2010 21:53:31(UTC)
GSRR

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,339
Location: USA
frankie wrote:
GSRR wrote:
Also since you have already used a laptop power supply you might be interested in this.

switched mode power supply SMPS

https://www.marklin-user...aspx?g=posts&t=17077

The new Marklin 60061 60 VA Switched Mode Power Pack is 230 Volts, there is not a 120 Volt version available for North America.




r/Thomas




Which is quite strange, because most if not all laptop power supplies nowadays work seamlessy on both voltage across the pond...




Alessandro,

It does seem strange. Laptop power supplies usually work from 100 - 240 Volts, one would think that Marklin would take the advantage of only having to build, stock, and market an item that could work worldwide? On the other hand they maybe sitting on a 5 year supply of 120V transformers.


r/Thomas

ETE UserPostedImage ECoS iTrain TouchCab C-Gleis German Era Id & IIIb USA Era IIIb SBB Era III SJ Era IV GC Era V
Offline nevw  
#25 Posted : 27 October 2010 02:13:27(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,067
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
ESU supply a self sensing Voltage Power supply with the ECOS and Boosters. (100 V - 240 V)

NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
Offline sudibarba  
#26 Posted : 27 October 2010 04:23:05(UTC)
sudibarba

United States   
Joined: 28/07/2006(UTC)
Posts: 876
Location: Augusta, GA USA
There is a lot of discussion about power supply on the forum in several places right now. I find it very interesting but I only half understand most of it. What I do know is that my CS2 evidently costs $800 to replace right now. I do not have boosters right now but have all my lights, turnouts etc running off separate marklin 30v transformers. I have multiple feeders to track sections. I might use some old Delta controllers as boosters with extra Marklin white transformers I got cheap on eBay.
I have no power problems even with my M track. I often run 4 loks, some with sound, lights and lighted cars.

Is the objective to find cheaper transformers or what. To me, they are a small cost of operations. I do not want to jeprodise my CS2, loks or whatever to save a few bucks. I would like to add more powerfull transformers but I thought the CS2 and other boosters limited output anyway so a larger power supply did no good.

Like I said, I only half understand so please help me understand the objective and were I am in error.

Thanks,
Eric
Offline arconell  
#27 Posted : 27 October 2010 14:36:07(UTC)
arconell


Joined: 27/07/2010(UTC)
Posts: 174
Location: Kreis Kleve, Germany
Hi Eric, just to quote myself, this is really what this is all about:

Quote:
For all of you in this thread, please try to realize that getting everything to run smoothly and without problems means getting all dimensions right to begin with.

Start with calculating what the power requirements are when you run the max. number of trains (with lighting, sound, telex), switching points and signals etc. Then you will know what your requirements re booster output are. Now make sure your boosters*** can actually perform up to their specified power by providing adequate power sources. (transformer ratings for standard modelrailway transformers* are somewhat misleading in that they don't deliver the max. rated power (indicated as VA) under load conditions, so if you want your booster to deliver up to its max. rated output you'll need a larger transformer or better still a switched mode power supply-which don't suffer from these power losses )

Provide sufficient feeding points on the tracks (every 2-3 meter for M and K-rail, every 4-6 meter for C-rail) and make sure the connecting wires are of sufficient gauge to transport the required currents, they should be specified for 10 Amps min. Use as few connectors as you can, if possible use soldered joints instead of connectors. In track feeding lines, use connectors specified for 10 Amps min. as well (I use connectors and wires as used in cars-corroision proof and stable). The hair-thin wires sold by your local trainshop are definitely unsuitable to conduct anything over a couple of milliamps.

Once you´ve done that run your trains and you´ll be amazed how little effect dust and little specs of rust will have on your driving pleasure.** If you don´t believe me ask your local electrician. Following these simple and basic rules will probably mean the end of your frequenting fora like this one but that would be the least of your problems I´d imagine.

*There are no fuses in these transformers, to make them short circuit proof you reduce the size of the laminated iron core so that the max. current is dictated by magnetic saturation of the core, such that a meltdown cannot occur. Putting a fuse between the transformer and the booster doesn´t therefore make any sense. (This construction makes the transformer less efficient and results in relatively large voltage drops under higher loads.)

**Most people think that dust and dirt/rust on the tracks can only be removed by mechanical/chemical means. Not so, we all know that running a train at a higher speed often helps to clean the tracks in just one run around the layout. Indeed that cleans the tracks and the studs but not by mechanically rubbing away the dirt but by electrocuting/vaporizing it. In order for that process to work properly, again you need a bit more electric power to overcome the initial contact resistance.

***A track short circuit will never damage a modern booster, it will switch itself off. To blow up your booster you either need back-feeding into the booster output (shorting 2 booster outputs against each other) or very high capacitive or (worse) inductive load peaks. That will blow out the end stages but it will not cause a short. Same for decoders.

Good luck, Robert


There may (but there shouldn't) be boosters on the market that are not short-circuit proof or are limited short circuit proof. My advice would be to steer clear of such boosters. Simply because a derailed train or coach on your tracks will inevitably trigger a short (on Märklin 3-rail even more quickly then on 2-rail tracks) and I don't think any model railroader wants to buy a new booster every time a loco derails...

Hope this helps, Robert

Ps: the whole discussion on batteries is not important in itself (being a more theoretical discussion), although using a such battery does work fine as I know from my own experience.
Offline GSRR  
#28 Posted : 27 October 2010 20:29:39(UTC)
GSRR

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,339
Location: USA
sudibarba wrote:
There is a lot of discussion about power supply on the forum in several places right now. I find it very interesting but I only half understand most of it. What I do know is that my CS2 evidently costs $800 to replace right now. I do not have boosters right now but have all my lights, turnouts etc running off separate marklin 30v transformers. I have multiple feeders to track sections. I might use some old Delta controllers as boosters with extra Marklin white transformers I got cheap on eBay.
I have no power problems even with my M track. I often run 4 loks, some with sound, lights and lighted cars.

Is the objective to find cheaper transformers or what. To me, they are a small cost of operations. I do not want to jeprodise my CS2, loks or whatever to save a few bucks. I would like to add more powerfull transformers but I thought the CS2 and other boosters limited output anyway so a larger power supply did no good.

Like I said, I only half understand so please help me understand the objective and were I am in error.

Thanks,
Eric




To be clear I am trying to illustrate to those forum members who are not resident in areas of the world that use 230V that there is a viable, afforadble alternative to the Marklin 60061 SMP power supply (230 V/50 Hz / 19 V/60W). While you may not find a product built by Marklin or ESU at the corner store, laptop brick style SMP's are readily available.



Eric,

For me it's not about being cheaper, though it can be, it is about what I mentioned above. The new switch mode power supplies seem to have a beneifit for users compared to the older transformers. Please see Tom's (HO) post here:

https://www.marklin-user...aspx?g=posts&t=15313


While the old Delta controllers have been used as boosters in the past, say with a 6021, there maybe be some drawbacks with a CS2. It has been a while since I read up on the Delta's but I'm not sure you will get MFX feedback from lok's to the CS2 using the Delta as a booster. Maybe someone has something more definative.

In terms of the CS2, it will be limited as to the amperage sent to the track, but you can get boosters from ESU, or the LDT DB4 that will send 4 + amps to the track for those sections using a booster.


r/Thomas



ETE UserPostedImage ECoS iTrain TouchCab C-Gleis German Era Id & IIIb USA Era IIIb SBB Era III SJ Era IV GC Era V
Offline charles Sharpe  
#29 Posted : 28 October 2010 09:24:21(UTC)
charles Sharpe


Joined: 21/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,430
Location: NORFOLK UK
Hi Guys.

I have managed to get hold of the new type trans for the CS2 it has come out of a starter set.

Charles.BigGrin BigGrin
CHARLES SHARPE
Offline kgsjoqvist  
#30 Posted : 28 October 2010 13:58:06(UTC)
kgsjoqvist

Sweden   
Joined: 04/06/2002(UTC)
Posts: 754
Location: Täby
GSRR wrote:
While the old Delta controllers have been used as boosters in the past, say with a 6021, there maybe be some drawbacks with a CS2. It has been a while since I read up on the Delta's but I'm not sure you will get MFX feedback from lok's to the CS2 using the Delta as a booster. Maybe someone has something more definative.

In terms of the CS2, it will be limited as to the amperage sent to the track, but you can get boosters from ESU, or the LDT DB4 that will send 4 + amps to the track for those sections using a booster.


r/Thomas


With a few exception most boosters are only transmitting the signal from the controller to the track without feedback. The new boosters from Märklin and ESU are the exceptions. It is possible to build a module that transmits the mfx signal back from the track in connection to any booster - but I have only seen this as a home-built electronic project.

The "Delta-booster" is a bit slow and is not recommended for running trains (but can be used for accessories). But other boosters can be used as long as the mfx locos are first introduced on a section controlled directly by the CS.
K-G / H0 and Z model train user
Offline H0  
#31 Posted : 28 October 2010 15:02:14(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,696
Location: DE-NW
kgsjoqvist wrote:
It is possible to build a module that transmits the mfx signal back from the track in connection to any booster - but I have only seen this as a home-built electronic project.

There also is a commercial product: Tams Booster-Link
http://www.tams-online.d...terLink/produkte_BL.html (German only)

kgsjoqvist wrote:
The "Delta-booster" is a bit slow [...]

That information is given in the FAQ from Maerklin America - but people who analysed the layout of the Delta Control say this isn't true.

kgsjoqvist wrote:
[...] is not recommended for running trains (but can be used for accessories).

Is that your recommendation? Many people use it to run their trains.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline old toot  
#32 Posted : 29 October 2010 01:03:54(UTC)
old toot

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 498
Location: christchurch, canterbury
Hi all
while it maybe a nice idea to find another power supply
but from my retail days with dick smith the minute you
connect another power supply other than the makers model
you can forget your warranty so as long as you understand
that the marklin 60a power supply is designed to run the CS2
and with LCD screen on board you need more than the 18a supply
it will turn it on but to operate with full functions it needs
the 60a supply which is why they make it
sony panasonic toshiba etc all have the same attitude you choose
to use something other than what we recommend your warranty is void
I just want you to aware of that before you hurt your investment
regards
bryan old toot
were we pickit, packit and postit
Offline sudibarba  
#33 Posted : 29 October 2010 04:11:58(UTC)
sudibarba

United States   
Joined: 28/07/2006(UTC)
Posts: 876
Location: Augusta, GA USA
old toot wrote:
Hi all
while it maybe a nice idea to find another power supply
but from my retail days with dick smith the minute you
connect another power supply other than the makers model
you can forget your warranty so as long as you understand
that the marklin 60a power supply is designed to run the CS2
and with LCD screen on board you need more than the 18a supply
it will turn it on but to operate with full functions it needs
the 60a supply which is why they make it
sony panasonic toshiba etc all have the same attitude you choose
to use something other than what we recommend your warranty is void
I just want you to aware of that before you hurt your investment
regards
bryan old toot


I agree. Why bother. Anyway, I already have my transformer as I
can't see why I would not buy it when I bought the CS2. Now, to be honest,
I thought about using my transformers from the 6021 days but went for the
higher power that Marklin offered with the CS2 release. I believe from
what I have read that a higher powered one would not get more through the CS2
anyway.
Eric
Offline charles Sharpe  
#34 Posted : 04 November 2010 19:43:57(UTC)
charles Sharpe


Joined: 21/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,430
Location: NORFOLK UK
My new transformer came today it's the new version that goes with the CS2. I put a 13 amp plug on it and connected it into the system and all is ok.

Charles.
CHARLES SHARPE
Offline GSRR  
#35 Posted : 08 November 2010 18:27:25(UTC)
GSRR

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,339
Location: USA
UserPostedImage




Snap and lock DC power connectors (Transformer connection)

(take note that the power connection is a larger diameter than the Mini-DIN connectors)


Did some searching.

"These connectors look similar to Mini DIN connectors, but have either 3 or 4 thicker pins and a slightly larger mating shell. Because of this they do not mate with any of the Mini DIN connectors. They can usually be identified by an engraved symbol on the backs of the plug, consisting of two wide arrows pointing in opposite directions, but parallel to each other, or sometimes one wide arrow inside a box, pointing towards the end of the male connector. Some devices, however, do use a standard 4-pin Mini-DIN connector, presenting the possibility for non-technical users to mate the connector with the wrong port (such as an S-Video output on a video card).

* Also known as Power Mini-DIN or Power DIN
* The male plug's mating shell outer diameter is 10 mm (0.394 inch), and the pins are 1.5 mm diameter
* Standard may include a limit of 20 V at 7.5 amperes
* 4-pin
* Kycon part number KPPX-4P (RoHS)"


* http://anacapa.kycon.com/Pub_Eng_Draw/KPPX-4P.pdf

and here is a blow up view of the part.

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/327239.pdf



http://www.globtek.com/html/outputPlugCord.htm

http://octopart.com/kppx-4p-kycon-765568

http://pdf.directindustr...og/12684-27263-_193.html

http://www.newark.com/js...MP=AFC-OP&CMP=AFC-OP

http://uk.farnell.com/ky...lug-free-4way/dp/1437589



For the Marklin 60061 60 VA Switched Mode Power Pack, 230 Volts

If I remember correctly pin #1 (lower left) was power and pin #2 (Lower Right) was ground?

Pin #3 (Upper Left) Not used and Pin #4 (Upper Right) not used.


Marklin item # 120722 this is the Kycon plug and 18AWG (1.02mm) 2 conductor pre wired?

http://www.protekpowerna...e-and-Connector-List.pdf

====================================================================

For the Mini DIN connections such as the Booster 60173, Aux, or SX see this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-DIN_connector

==========================================================================

I have now come across some power supplies that have the 4 pin Kycon KPPX-4P used by Marklin for the CS2 power input. Need to confirm proper power and return pin setting.

These are manufactured by XP and sold by Newark and sister company Farnell.

http://xppower.com/page....=litdownload&lang=EN

http://xppower.com/pdfs/XPCAT_09.pdf see pages 154 - 173

http://www.newark.com/xp...er/aef100ps19/dp/52R2715

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/467562.pdf






Regards,


Thomas




edit 09 Nov 10


Edited by user 10 November 2010 00:18:00(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline oliver  
#36 Posted : 09 November 2010 23:47:40(UTC)
oliver


Joined: 22/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 10
Location: USA, N.E.
GSRR wrote:
UserPostedImage




Snap and lock DC power connectors (Transformer connection)


Did some searching.

"These connectors look similar to Mini DIN connectors, but have either 3 or 4 thicker pins and a slightly larger mating shell. Because of this they do not mate with any of the Mini DIN connectors. They can usually be identified by an engraved symbol on the backs of the plug, consisting of two wide arrows pointing in opposite directions, but parallel to each other, or sometimes one wide arrow inside a box, pointing towards the end of the male connector. Some devices, however, do use a standard 4-pin Mini-DIN connector, presenting the possibility for non-technical users to mate the connector with the wrong port (such as an S-Video output on a video card).

* Also known as Power Mini-DIN or Power DIN
* The male plug's mating shell outer diameter is 10 mm (0.394 inch), and the pins are 1.5 mm diameter
* Standard may include a limit of 20 V at 7.5 amperes
* 4-pin
* Kycon part number KPPX-4P (RoHS)"


* http://anacapa.kycon.com/Pub_Eng_Draw/KPPX-4P.pdf





http://www.globtek.com/html/outputPlugCord.htm


http://pdf.directindustr...og/12684-27263-_193.html

http://www.newark.com/js...MP=AFC-OP&CMP=AFC-OP


For the Marklin 60061 60 VA Switched Mode Power Pack, 230 Volts

If I remember correctly pin #1 (lower left) was power and pin #2 (Lower Right) was ground?

Pin #3 (Upper Left) Not used and Pin #4 (Upper Right) not used.


Marklin item # 120722 this is the Kycon plug and 18AWG (1.02mm) 2 conductor pre wired?

http://www.protekpowerna...otes/Cable-Connector.pdf


For the Mini DIN connections such as the Booster 60173, Aux, or SX see this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-DIN_connector


Regards,


Thomas




The connector Marklin uses is a Snap and lock DC power connector, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/...lock_DC_power_connectors

It appears Marklin uses two pins for DC and the other two for AC.I will find out.

If someone from Marklin reads this - what are their comments. After all, we are their customers!
Offline GSRR  
#37 Posted : 10 November 2010 00:26:06(UTC)
GSRR

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,339
Location: USA
oliver wrote:


It appears Marklin uses two pins for DC and the other two for AC.I will find out.





Oliver,

If you are willing to take apart the plug using this graphic as a guide you will have your answer.


http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/327239.pdf


r/Thomas





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Offline arconell  
#38 Posted : 10 November 2010 02:26:59(UTC)
arconell


Joined: 27/07/2010(UTC)
Posts: 174
Location: Kreis Kleve, Germany
oliver wrote:


The connector Marklin uses is a Snap and lock DC power connector, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/...lock_DC_power_connectors

It appears Marklin uses two pins for DC and the other two for AC.I will find out.

If someone from Marklin reads this - what are their comments. After all, we are their customers!



Hi Oliver,

Technically there is a sound reason to do just that.

Sorry for quoting myself, this is what I wrote earlier in this thread:

Quote:
....Anyway, it is not a matter of just connecting a simple power supply but giving the user a choice between a transformer producing an unstabilised AC output or a switched-mode power supply producing a stabilised DC output.
Since the 60214 built-in booster itself is not stabilised (meaning that the more trains you run off that booster the more the track voltage will drop), feeding it with a stabilised power supply will also stabilise the booster output.
As a direct result you need separate power input circuitry and thus separate physical inputs for each kind (AC or DC) power supply. That is if you want to do a proper job.

A proper job means in this case that when you run DC through an AC input you run it through a diode bridge. De diode bridge will conduct the DC but not without loosing some 0,2 Volt through each of the conducting diodes. (across the P/N boundaries). Now if you go through the trouble of making a highly efficient switched-mode power supply in the first place you don´t want to immediately loose part of that efficiency again by unnecessarily running its output through a rectifier bridge.


When mentioning the 0,2V drop I more or less assumed Mä uses Schottky diodes as rectifiers in the CS2. If they use regular silicon diodes, the drop would be 0,7V per diode..


I am not a Märklin employee, and commercially they´ll be accused of forcing the customer to buy their power sources only by using a "de-facto" proprietary (non-common) connector/cabling solution. 2 seperate plugs or jacks or sets of screw terminals would have done the same job leaving us more freedom...

Regards, Robert

Offline GSRR  
#39 Posted : 10 November 2010 05:32:06(UTC)
GSRR

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,339
Location: USA
arconell wrote:


I am not a Märklin employee, and commercially they´ll be accused of forcing the customer to buy their power sources only by using a "de-facto" proprietary (non-common) connector/cabling solution. 2 seperate plugs or jacks or sets of screw terminals would have done the same job leaving us more freedom...

Regards, Robert




Robert,

Interesting points. As for freedom to choose I have been looking into the ability to use other suitable power sources. See here:

https://www.marklin-user...aspx?g=posts&t=17077


r/Thomas


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Offline GSRR  
#40 Posted : 11 November 2010 17:55:35(UTC)
GSRR

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,339
Location: USA
So would the following be correct? With the older 6001/2/3 or 60052/55 supplying 16 volt AC output voltage to the top two pins and the newer 60061 supplying 19 volt DC output voltage to the bottom two pins?


r/Thomas




UserPostedImage






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Offline petra51  
#41 Posted : 30 December 2010 12:23:51(UTC)
petra51


Joined: 30/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 5
Location: Frozen Midwest
GSRR wrote:
frankie wrote:
GSRR wrote:
Also since you have already used a laptop power supply you might be interested in this.

switched mode power supply SMPS

https://www.marklin-user...aspx?g=posts&t=17077

The new Marklin 60061 60 VA Switched Mode Power Pack is 230 Volts, there is not a 120 Volt version available for North America.




r/Thomas




Which is quite strange, because most if not all laptop power supplies nowadays work seamlessy on both voltage across the pond...




Alessandro,

It does seem strange. Laptop power supplies usually work from 100 - 240 Volts, one would think that Marklin would take the advantage of only having to build, stock, and market an item that could work worldwide? On the other hand they maybe sitting on a 5 year supply of 120V transformers.


r/Thomas



Thomas & Alessandro,

Not strange - right on!

Since both 60061(CS2) & 66361(MS2) are "switching" power supplies, they can be used in the US
for 120VAC/60Hz input. You just have to be willing to use an adapter plug to allow the conversion
of the German plug for the US power outlets (a few dollars at the luggage store, etc). It's a
breeze. I'm using the 66361 with the MS2 here in Minneapolis as I write this. That is the entire
meaning of a switching power supply, to auto switch between input voltages, this case 120VAC or
230VAC (and their frequent near voltages).

See my similar post on this: https://www.marklin-user...aspx?g=posts&t=15970

Cheers

Petra
Offline clapcott  
#42 Posted : 01 January 2011 01:33:46(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,358
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Please be clear ..

The term "Switch Mode" for power supplies refers to the mechanism by which they generate an output. i.e. simplistically by electronically internally switching on and off (the faster the better). Unlike the main alternative "Linear" (or <Series>Pass) which would bypass unused power though other components (generally heat generating resistors and power transistors). Thus it can be seen that, while electronic control needs to be a little more sophisticated , when it works the Switch Mode power supply is a) far more efficient and b) smaller

This by NO means "implies" that the input that can be utilised can be multi-ranging or even variable (Voltage AND/OR Frequency)- this is a totally separate part of the design. In fact for a switched mode circuit to be designed for maximum efficiencies (and minimal cost) the less variation on its input the better.

Additional reading -
http://en.wikipedia.org/...itched_mode_power_supply
Peter
Offline nevw  
#43 Posted : 01 January 2011 02:20:39(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,067
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
The power Supply that comes with the ESU ECOS is marked 110 - 240 V. JUst change the plug or use an adaptor. On epower supply that can be used anywhere.


NN
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
Offline petra51  
#44 Posted : 29 January 2011 06:42:34(UTC)
petra51


Joined: 30/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 5
Location: Frozen Midwest


Then we should all be clear. "Switch Mode" power supply, which I was not necessarily referring to, is commonly referred
to as an SMPS, which is of course an electronic power supply that necessarily contains a switching regulator for more
efficient converted and regulated output - usually rectified AC.

Note: The rectifier circuit can be (and often is) configured as a voltage doubler, by use of a manual or
"automatic" SWITCH (input range is "switched"), commonly referred to as an auto "switching" power supply.

In the end one can test the power supply to determine its capability, as in this case the Märklin documentation does
not mention it specifically. Cool

Best,

Petra




Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Please be clear ..

The term "Switch Mode" for power supplies refers to the mechanism by which they generate an output. i.e. simplistically by electronically internally switching on and off (the faster the better). Unlike the main alternative "Linear" (or <Series>Pass) which would bypass unused power though other components (generally heat generating resistors and power transistors). Thus it can be seen that, while electronic control needs to be a little more sophisticated , when it works the Switch Mode power supply is a) far more efficient and b) smaller

This by NO means "implies" that the input that can be utilised can be multi-ranging or even variable (Voltage AND/OR Frequency)- this is a totally separate part of the design. In fact for a switched mode circuit to be designed for maximum efficiencies (and minimal cost) the less variation on its input the better.

Additional reading -
http://en.wikipedia.org/...itched_mode_power_supply

Offline H0  
#45 Posted : 29 January 2011 10:37:03(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,696
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: petra51 Go to Quoted Post
In the end one can test the power supply to determine its capability, as in this case the Märklin documentation does
not mention it specifically. Cool

Sure, you can test it - but you do it at your own risk.

Maybe it works up to say 40 Watts - but overheats when used with 60 Watts?

If it was designed for 230 Volts only, using it at 115 Volts will lead to a higher internal frequency and a higher internal current on the high voltage side.
Half voltage => double current.
Higher frequencies can also lead to unwanted side effects.

So the big, unanswered question is: is this a standard wide range power supply and only the toy certificate is limited to 230 Volts - or is this a power supply that was optimized for 230 Volts only and usage at 115 Volts could lead to magic smoke coming out?

I've seen computers that worked fine at 20°C room temperature - and failed at 30°C room temperature.
Out of 8 identical computers, some failed and some worked. So don't presume that all will work if you only test one.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline nevw  
#46 Posted : 29 January 2011 11:26:26(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,067
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
The safest way IF the M power supply is not specified for 110 V is to get the ESU Power supply which is rated from 110 to 240 V

Nn
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
Offline darryl123  
#47 Posted : 19 December 2011 18:11:05(UTC)
darryl123


Joined: 17/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 20
Location: boston
here is a couple pictures of the inside of the 60213 circut board and the bridge rectifier.
http://www.irf.com/produ...sheets/data/50wq06fn.pdf and the data sheet for the Schottky rectifier thats used.
darryl123 attached the following image(s):
SANY0029.JPG
SANY0048.JPG
SANY0034.JPG
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Offline GSRR  
#48 Posted : 19 December 2011 19:42:13(UTC)
GSRR

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,339
Location: USA
Originally Posted by: darryl123 Go to Quoted Post
here is a couple pictures of the inside of the 60213 circut board and the bridge rectifier.
http://www.irf.com/produ...sheets/data/50wq06fn.pdf and the data sheet for the Schottky rectifier thats used.



Darryl123

Was this a repair, or just opened it up to see inside?



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Offline darryl123  
#49 Posted : 20 December 2011 02:13:26(UTC)
darryl123


Joined: 17/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 20
Location: boston
hi
i had opened it to try to find what polarity the connectors are to use a dc power supply. i couldnt follow any of the traces it has a multy layer pc board. i did take lots of pictures so if any are needed i have them. i ended up using a switching power supply on the ac inputs and its working great. with only .5 volt drop from input voltage.
Offline GSRR  
#50 Posted : 20 December 2011 11:42:35(UTC)
GSRR

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,339
Location: USA
Originally Posted by: GSRR Go to Quoted Post
So would the following be correct? With the older 6001/2/3 or 60052/55 supplying 16 volt AC output voltage to the top two pins and the newer 60061 supplying 19 volt DC output voltage to the bottom two pins?


r/Thomas




UserPostedImage








......................................................

Originally Posted by: darryl123 Go to Quoted Post
hi
i had opened it to try to find what polarity the connectors are to use a dc power supply. i couldnt follow any of the traces it has a multy layer pc board. i did take lots of pictures so if any are needed i have them. i ended up using a switching power supply on the ac inputs and its working great. with only .5 volt drop from input voltage.



...............................


Darryl123


Is the above graphic correct in terms of which pin inputs for AC and DC connections?

What type or brand SWP are you using?



r/Thomas
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