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Offline Drongo  
#1 Posted : 11 September 2014 14:47:54(UTC)
Drongo

Australia   
You have been a member since:: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,221
Location: Sydney, NSW
Recently I bought some Marklin products that were on super special in USA. When they arrived the boxes had small stickers on them identifying their country of origin. This is law in the USA and here in Australia, however, it's not the case in Europe. Therefore, when I buy online from a German retailer I don't have the country of origin on the box.

The products I received from USA were made in China - I couldn't believe it - Marklin wagons made in China. Needless to say, they fell apart within minutes of use. Now to send them back for repairs was going to cost me the same as what I paid for them - postage from Australia to USA is expensive. So these Marklin wagons are now in the rubbish bin and they have become extremely expensive wagons. Cursing Cursing Cursing

My question to the forum is - how can I tell where the Marklin products are made before I buy them ? I've vowed only to buy Goeppingen products from now on - they are more expensive but I feel they are the genuine Marklin product - the product that carries the Marklin name and reliability. If I'm wrong, please tell me.

Regards
Greg
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Offline RayF  
#2 Posted : 11 September 2014 14:57:03(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
In this case, just seeing a sticker with China written on it made you pre disposed to think of them as rubbish. To answer your question, yes I think you're wrong.

Some of the production from China has had quality control issues, but a lot of the products made there have been perfectly ok.

Very little is actually made in Germany today. A lot is made in Hungary. Some of the Chinese production has been transferred to Hungary.

Perhaps if you describe the exact items that fell apart and how they failed I might be more inclined to accept your assessment.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 11 September 2014 15:22:34(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: youngagain Go to Quoted Post
My question to the forum is - how can I tell where the Marklin products are made before I buy them?
I'm afraid this is not possible.

When you see on Märklin TV that a certain model is assembled in Germany, then you can hope that all models with that ref. number will be made in Germany.
With modern production you cannot assume that items are made in one location anyway. I wouldn't be surprised to see metal die-casting and painting done in Germany with final assembly being done in Hungary.

Would you give us the ref. numbers of the products that had the "Made in China" stickers?

I'm with Ray that "Made in China" is not always bad quality - and I'm afraid "Made in Hungary" is not always good quality.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline MACER  
#4 Posted : 11 September 2014 20:08:38(UTC)
MACER

Argentina   
Joined: 12/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 137
Location: DISTRITO FEDERAL, BUENOS AIRES
Hi alls

Tracks C made in China too and have 3 numbers only, germans have 5..

Dawn quality, no are bad, i have sames.

Macer
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#5 Posted : 11 September 2014 22:02:52(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,067
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: MACER Go to Quoted Post
Hi alls

Tracks C made in China too and have 3 numbers only, germans have 5..

Dawn quality, no are bad, i have sames.

Macer


On what basis do you say that the 3 digit numbered items are made in China? I suspect that having only 3 digits is more to do with the same molding being used for the Trix C track range which have catalog numbers 64xxx instead of 24xxx, where for an identical format item the same last 3 digits are used.

Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#6 Posted : 11 September 2014 23:28:51(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,861
Location: CA, USA
I've had problems with items made in all 3 locations. I don't think quality can be tied to one plant, my only personal gripe is paying the german price and getting a chinese item, they should be priced accordingly.

Before I elaborate, I should note that I'm rather happy with marklin purchases the past few years. I've certainly had some issues, but nothing I can completely blow my top about, meaning one warranty repair/fix and all was good going forward

I never had anything flat-out fall apart on me though. My only Marklin flaw in the past 5+ years that wasn't electronics related was a 37867 Blue Arrow. When it arrived it was missing the lettering on one side. (lokshop replaced asap for free, and only charged me postage one way)

Now in terms of electronic problems, I've had them since the sound went out on the very first 37184 in the late 1990's... As much as I love the electronics, I've found them to be a massive burden on fun and reliability. (nobody likes a broken train!)

SBB Era 2-5
Offline RayF  
#7 Posted : 11 September 2014 23:40:43(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
You're right, John. The more electronics in our trains the more unreliable they are.

Not just in the locomotives either. There wasn't much that could go wrong in the old transformers, but any of the digital controllers seems to have a fifty-fifty chance of surviving long enough to become obsolete.

Edited by user 12 September 2014 09:39:14(UTC)  | Reason: rephrasing

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline TroyYang  
#8 Posted : 12 September 2014 01:07:03(UTC)
TroyYang


Joined: 01/04/2009(UTC)
Posts: 157
Location: San Francisco, CA
Marklin has been outsourcing to China for almost ten years. Why is this news???

To say China-made Marklin items will fall apart immediately is pure BS.

Edited by moderator 12 September 2014 05:13:21(UTC)  | Reason: Moderated the language a bit!

Troy
San Francisco, USA
Marklin HO - all eras and everything.
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Offline petestra  
#9 Posted : 12 September 2014 02:14:52(UTC)
petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,824
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
I bought a three car tanker set a few years ago which stated "Made In China". They are fine, look great and I've had no problems whatsoever. However,

China does have a-lot to learn. I lost my two babies (cats) back in 2005 and 2006 because they ate tainted pet food that caused cancer which was made in China. They were

putting tiny bits of plastic into the food! Now I will not buy any pet/people food which is made there. Peter Crying
Offline MACER  
#10 Posted : 12 September 2014 03:44:51(UTC)
MACER

Argentina   
Joined: 12/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 137
Location: DISTRITO FEDERAL, BUENOS AIRES

Is terrible food for cats and dogs contaminated!!

Sorry for your animals, my ex cat never eat food for animals, and live 14 years.


The information over 3 or 5 numbers in tracks C, my friends tell me this situation.

True or lie!!

Macer
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Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 12 September 2014 07:45:04(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: MACER Go to Quoted Post
The information over 3 or 5 numbers in tracks C, my friends tell me this situation.
Märklin TV shows us C Track production in Hungary.

You say it comes from China - and you can tell it from the three-digit number.

US-based members of the forum may be able to tell us what the "Made in ..." stickers on their C track boxes say.

I don't like Märklin's lack of transparency about their Chinese production. I want to hear facts.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline mike c  
#12 Posted : 12 September 2014 09:21:46(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,865
Location: Montreal, QC
European EU regulations on Country of Origin (COO) labelling are different from those in North America. In Europe, COO is defined as the last country where production occurred while in North America, the NAFTA (North America Free Trade) regulations require the country where the lion's share of production occurred to be designated. This enables companies like Maerklin to market products in Europe with Made in EU, Made in Germany or Made in Hungary labelling while the same item might have to be labelled Made in China for North America. Today, most Maerklin products sold in the EU are simply labelled Made in EU with the company address in Goeppingen. The same items in North America will have a sticker applied with more specific information (e.g. Made in China).

People in Europe might simply assume that their models are Made in Hungary (Györ) when most of the work was done by a subcontractor in China. According to European regulations, they can label a product as Made in EU if the final packaging and presentation was done in the EU. Maerklin is not that dishonest. In many cases, the work done in Györ includes the painting and inscriptions on forms received from China and the assembly of the painted and lettered shell on the frame that came from China. The model is then packaged and voila, Made in EU.

For North American made products, the goods can be labelled Made in USA or Made in Canada if the goods consist primarily of parts made in those countries. If the goods contain parts made outside of North America, manufacturers have to label their goods as made in those countries. One loophole that was offered to the companies is to label the goods as "Assembled in USA using parts made in XXX", a designation which AFAIK is not used in the EU.

Sometimes it can be confusing. If anybody wants to discuss this in more detail, please send me a PM.

As far as C-Track, I had heard that the original Alpha track was Made in China. I do not know whether Maerklin continued to have C-Track manufactured in China. At some point, the production was transferred to Györ, but I do not know whether that was the complete production or whether it currently consists of the assembly of the plastic and metal components that may still come from China.

Regards

Mike C
Offline mike c  
#13 Posted : 12 September 2014 09:29:12(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,865
Location: Montreal, QC
I have a few two axled gondolas (from the 26/28730 and 29516 Sets and the 47878 FS Set).
http://www.lokdepot.de/i...s/info_images/5881_1.jpg
I have had no less than three such cars where the little clips that hold the gondola box on to the chassis have broken, sometimes as the result of as little as the car being coupled to other cars. I have considered trying to repair the cars using flat headed screws as the cars all have gravel, coal or wood loads that could potentially hide the screws. This is very poor design and quality, especially when compared to similar cars from the 1960s/1970s.
I don't know whether these cars (1998 and more recent) are products of Goeppingen, Sonneberg, Guangdong (China) or Györ, but I am not impressed.

Regards

Mike C
Offline RayF  
#14 Posted : 12 September 2014 10:00:11(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Hi Mike,

I have that gondola from the 29516 set, as well as other similar ones. I don't seem to have the same problem with those clips. I believe most of the wagons produced at that time came from Sonneberg. I remember reading an article by Marklin somewhere explaining what was produced at each of their plants at the time.

I have, however, had some problems with older 4601 gondolas that become detached from the chassis. I pretty sure this is totally unrelated, and anyway is fixed easily with a drop of glue.

One issue I have had with recent purchases is that of wheel flanges rubbing on the bottom of the wagon, creating friction and stopping the wagon from rolling freely. I have only found this on "My world" wagons bought in the last year or two, and I suspect that these might be made in China. They look identical to other older ones in my collection, and I can't see why there's a difference in the fit of the wheels. The solution is very simple, I just run a file over the area of chassis where the flanges rub until there is no contact.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 12 September 2014 11:45:44(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
In Europe, COO is defined as the last country where production occurred
Do you have a source for that?

Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
Today, most Maerklin products sold in the EU are simply labelled Made in EU with the company address in Goeppingen.
Wrong. The vast majority of Märklin items sold here comes without any "Made in" notice. They just print the Göppingen address on all boxes and hope that naïve customers will believe it was made in Germany.

Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
As far as C-Track, I had heard that the original Alpha track was Made in China. I do not know whether Maerklin continued to have C-Track manufactured in China. At some point, the production was transferred to Györ, but I do not know whether that was the complete production or whether it currently consists of the assembly of the plastic and metal components that may still come from China.
I don't know where the Alpha track was made, but I read press reports that indicated that C track was produced in Sonneberg (Germany). Once again I don't know if it was made there completely. But at least I can say that at that time it was not completely made in China.
With C track, we have the rails, the connectors, the plastic die-cast, the printing. At least the last two were done in Sonneberg and I believe they are now done at Győr.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Andrey  
#16 Posted : 12 September 2014 13:05:30(UTC)
Andrey

Russian Federation   
Joined: 03/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 641
Location: Moscow
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
I don't like Märklin's lack of transparency about their Chinese production. I want to hear facts.


Absolutely agree.
If they sure that Chinese or Hungarian production quality is as good as "Made in Germany" - no need to hide the place of manufacturing.
If they know that it is actually not as good as German - please take measures to improve quality level or don't produce items there.
I have nothing against Chinese or other non-German production - make the products of the same (perfect) quality wherever you want and mention it proudly on the box.
However, while we see that the quality may differ depending of place of manufacturing, hiding the place of manufacture = support customer's guesswork or fears that product is of improper quality.
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Offline H0  
#17 Posted : 12 September 2014 14:35:40(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Re C Track: Märklin sold C track with five-digit numbers and marked "Made in Germany".
With respect to C track, "Made in Germany" is a bad sign because these old pieces often get brittle.

If an item is marked "Made in Germany" then the lion's share must have been made in Germany - not just the final step.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline tulit  
#18 Posted : 12 September 2014 15:02:29(UTC)
tulit

Canada   
Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 400
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Re C Track: Märklin sold C track with five-digit numbers and marked "Made in Germany".
With respect to C track, "Made in Germany" is a bad sign because these old pieces often get brittle.

If an item is marked "Made in Germany" then the lion's share must have been made in Germany - not just the final step.


All of my Walthers ctrack says "made in Hungary". Some are 3 digit some are 5 digit.
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#19 Posted : 12 September 2014 16:19:26(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
In Europe, COO is defined as the last country where production occurred
Do you have a source for that?


European Union: When two or more countries are involved in the production of a good, the origin of the good must be determined in accordance with Article 24 of Council Regulation (EEC) No 2913/92. Articles 24 states: "Goods whose production involved more than one country shall be deemed to originate in the country where they underwent their last, substantial, economically justified processing or working in an undertaking equipped for that purpose and resulting in the manufacture of a new product or representing an important stage of manufacture".
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Offline H0  
#20 Posted : 12 September 2014 17:17:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
European Union: When two or more countries are involved in the production of a good, the origin of the good must be determined in accordance with Article 24 of Council Regulation (EEC) No 2913/92. Articles 24 states: "Goods whose production involved more than one country shall be deemed to originate in the country where they underwent their last, substantial, economically justified processing or working in an undertaking equipped for that purpose and resulting in the manufacture of a new product or representing an important stage of manufacture".
Thanks.

So it's not just the last step. It must be "substantial" and "economically justified" and "resulting in the manufacture of a new product or representing an important stage of manufacture". It's not enough to plug a coupler into a China made car.

And reality is much more complicated than that. A German company marking products "Made in Germany" has to do this in compliance with German laws - and this means the lion's share must be made in Germany.

EU regulations are one thing, but for German companies only the German laws count. IANAL but AFAIK this is the case as long as they sell inside the EU.
German laws must comply with EU regulations, but sometimes they are stricter.

But sometimes a competitor must sue a company to enforce such rules and regulations.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline witzlerh  
#21 Posted : 12 September 2014 20:40:55(UTC)
witzlerh

Canada   
Joined: 25/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 417
Location: Sherwood Park, AB, Canada
I can understand that MADE IN CHINA has some bad connotations because of history. However do keep in mind that Japanese stuff was terrible quality in the 50s-60s...until they implemented a quality system that Detroit automakers rejected in the 60s. Now we love Japanese stuff, especially cars! and (until recently) made fun of American car quality. All in the space of 25 years!

The Chinese stuff is getting better but also getting more expensive, just like Japan did.

It will take time to pull stuff out of China and it will probably be still be good to get subcomponents made in China unless we are happy to pay more....
EU quality control is better than Chinese but not perfect either. Quality will go up and down amongst countries, companies, divisions, and people.

I do know this. Marklin make one of the best trains that are of great quality and still sell for a reasonable price. I have seen a lot of NA stuff and Marklin is an order of magnitude better in design and quality. I am happy to buy Marklin, even if the odd item is made in China. I have had issues with German made stuff, Hugarian made stuff and Chinese made stuff too, but Marklin did get them cleared up so I am happy. Marklin does a very good job making model trains.

As for the track part numbers. The bulk of the track numbers are only 3 digits as Marklin uses the same molds for Trix C track and Marklin C track.
There will be the odd exceptions for specialty track that cannot share the molds between the 2 track types. These will be 5 digits.
Harald
CS2 DB & Canadian Era 3-6
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Offline H0  
#22 Posted : 12 September 2014 21:44:29(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: witzlerh Go to Quoted Post
EU quality control is better than Chinese but not perfect either.
Märklin quality control is responsible for the quality of Märklin products. The EU does not check the quality.
In 2011, Märklin wrote a letter to the Mini-Club friends, begging for pardon for the quality problems with third party production:
https://www.marklin-user...uge-Fans.aspx#post302187

Production in Hungary started with quality problems - and they had to call the Insider set 81175 back (I assume it was made in Hungary).

Originally Posted by: witzlerh Go to Quoted Post
As for the track part numbers. The bulk of the track numbers are only 3 digits as Marklin uses the same molds for Trix C track and Marklin C track.
In the beginning there was only Märklin C Track and all pieces had five-digit numbers. With the introduction of Trix C Track came the reduction to three-digit numbers. This change may (or may not) coincide with the relocation of the C Track production.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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