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Pianne		#1 Posted : 31 October 2006 21:37:43(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 26/10/2004(UTC) Posts: 461 Location: Bruges,		I am planning to convert a few analog locos to 5-pole digital using TAMS LD-G-2 decoders. I got the decoders from conrad, and ordered the motor parts from lokshop. I guess I will need some components to reduce interference (peaks) from the motor. That's where I have some questions... 1/ Coils : They go in-line between the motor and decoder, right? What type should I use? Different websites mention different values (1,8 mH vs 3,9 mH) 2/ Capacitors : How many and where do they go? Is 1nF 50V the correct type? Are these the same as used by M* in their analog locs?
		Kind regards, Pieter-Jan Bruges, Belgium.
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rugauger		#2 Posted : 31 October 2006 22:29:53(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/12/2003(UTC) Posts: 1,205 Location: Swindon, Wiltshire		Hello Pieter-Jan, and welcome! 1) Yes, they go in-line between motor and decoder, one for each wire. I know different sites show different values. The value of the coils if bought with the Marklin conversion sets is 3,9mH 2) Depends . Marklin used to supply 3, but I've only ever used a single one, between the two brush holders. 1nF 50V is correct. P.S. For future conversion kits, I can recommend eBay seller "kikiluky"; she throws in the electronic parts so you don't have to get them separately...
		Richard
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perz		#3 Posted : 31 October 2006 22:48:25(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC) Posts: 2,578 Location: Sweden		2) There should be 3 capacitors. One between the two brush holders, and one from each brush holder to the ground/chassis/loco body. 1 nF 50 V is what Märklin supplies, and that is OK. I would recommend 1 nF 100 V, gives you a bit more margin against break-through. Cost and size is the same.
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DasBert33		#4 Posted : 31 October 2006 23:37:42(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,245		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by rugauger P.S. For future conversion kits, I can recommend eBay seller "kikiluky"; she throws in the electronic parts so you don't have to get them separately... I just ordered 10 conversion kits from her. They did not arrive yet but I already got an email stating she received my payment and that they are on their way. The price was 218 euros including shipping. That's 21.8 euro/motor. My preferred dealer in Belgium (vanbiervliet) asks 40 euro/motor for the same thing !![:0] The only thing you don't get is new lampholders and lamps. I also ordered 5 multiprotocol lokpilots and nem sockets to go with the motors. The total price/conversion will be 50 euros, about half what I would pay with an original M conversion kit. (the next 5 lokpilots/loksounds will be ordered later since I'm already over budget this year...) I have no good experience with (older) tams decoders. They do not work well with my ecos, nor with my MS. There was something wrong with the direction detection. The problem should be fixed by now but still... Programming is (was?) also not easy if you do not own a 6021. The lokpilots will replace some of the Tams decoders. Bert
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Pianne		#5 Posted : 01 November 2006 00:22:44(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 26/10/2004(UTC) Posts: 461 Location: Bruges,		Thank you for your quick replies! I can't wait to get the soldering iron out ... I have bookmarked kikiluky on eBay, I'll buy there in the future. The Tams decoders... yes they are a pain to program (I use MS), but then again, you only need to do it once. I've had no problems with direction detection (..yet..). And 20 euros for a load-regulated decoder is CHEAP !
		Kind regards, Pieter-Jan Bruges, Belgium.
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Bigdaddynz		#6 Posted : 01 November 2006 09:46:27(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,665 Location: New Zealand		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:[i] P.S. For future conversion kits, I can recommend eBay seller "kikiluky"; she throws in the electronic parts so you don't have to get them separately... This is good to hear. I've been eyeing up some of Kikiluky's offerings for some time, so will need to organise something soon. With regard to no lamps being included in the package, I have tried using a 12v DC bulb in loks where there is a screw type fitting. These bulbs fit into the fitting well, and as the decoder output is DC it powers the bulbs OK - I use something like a 39 ohm resitor in series for a slight voltage drop down to around 10v DC. eBay user elyser also sells motor kits, usally with a lokpilot for about 53 euros, not too bad a price I think.
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rugauger		#7 Posted : 01 November 2006 14:51:56(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/12/2003(UTC) Posts: 1,205 Location: Swindon, Wiltshire		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by perz <br />2) There should be 3 capacitors. One between the two brush holders, and one from each brush holder to the ground/chassis/loco body. ... Debateable. I've never seen a loco with the 3 caps fitted, but I do know that the Marklin instructions tell you to have three. I did fit all three to a loco once, but the driving characteristics were unchanged. If you get an Uhlenbrock decoder, the instructions only ask for the one as well. I think just the one between the two brushes is the commonly accepted standard. So I'd say save yourself the extra work and only fit the extra two caps if you are experiencing problems.
		Richard
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rschaffr		#8 Posted : 01 November 2006 15:11:32(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC) Posts: 5,180 Location: Southern New Jersey, USA		I agree. I usually skip the chokes, also.
		-Ron Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/CS3/6021Connect/60216051), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051) http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/trains.html
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DasBert33		#9 Posted : 01 November 2006 15:33:39(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,245		I heard the spontaneous departing of C sine locos could be related to absence of the caps/inductors in other locos. It doesn't hurt to place them most of the time so I see no reason not to. I suppose that if you do not have much power supply connection points on your layout it plays a bigger role becasue your digital information gets 'polluted' more by unfiltered motors running. Bert
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perz		#10 Posted : 01 November 2006 21:15:59(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC) Posts: 2,578 Location: Sweden		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote: Debateable. I've never seen a loco with the 3 caps fitted, Marklin originally had only the capacitor between the two brush holders. But I think they started to add the two other around 10 years ago. All locos I have with the 5-pole motor fitted from Märklin have all three capacitors. The main reason for the coils and capacitors is not to affect driving characteristics. These components serve the following purposes: - Reduce disturbance on other locos. - Reduce general radio disturbance. - Protect the decoder against voltage spikes from the motor. If you have less of these components you are less protected against these three things. Probably Märklin had to add the two extra capacitors to get below EU limits on radio disturbance.
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rugauger		#11 Posted : 02 November 2006 12:17:48(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/12/2003(UTC) Posts: 1,205 Location: Swindon, Wiltshire		I have only one loco that came factory-fitted with a 6090 and the 5-pole motor. Only 1 capacitor here! Looking at pictures from the insides of brand new locos on various forums, I have yet to see a factory loco with more than the single capacitor. But I'm will to be educated...
		Richard
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frankie		#12 Posted : 02 November 2006 18:45:13(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 692 Location: Italy		Hi everyone from Italy, I am a newcomer. I just had a bad experience with an Uhlenbrock 76200 where I didn't place the chokes in line to the motor inputs. All of a sudden the loco stopped with the lights blinking, I have raised the loco from the tracks and for once the loco was running again. After a while it started again to blink and a smell of burned electronics came out of the loco. I took it the off the track, opened it and on one of the decoder components there was a small, but undoubtely burn spot. The loco now doesn't run anymore, does anyone can tell what could have happened, bad decoder, a short?
		Alessandro I have a CS1 Reloaded!
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laalves		#13 Posted : 02 November 2006 18:55:52(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 2,162 Location: Portugal		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by rugauger <br />I have only one loco that came factory-fitted with a 6090 and the 5-pole motor. Only 1 capacitor here! Looking at pictures from the insides of brand new locos on various forums, I have yet to see a factory loco with more than the single capacitor. But I'm will to be educated... All 3-pole Delta loks I've seen so far have 3 caps. Luis
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laalves		#14 Posted : 02 November 2006 19:01:23(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 2,162 Location: Portugal		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by frankie <br />Hi everyone from Italy, I am a newcomer. I just had a bad experience with an Uhlenbrock 76200 where I didn't place the chokes in line to the motor inputs. All of a sudden the loco stopped with the lights blinking, I have raised the loco from the tracks and for once the loco was running again. After a while it started again to blink and a smell of burned electronics came out of the loco. I took it the off the track, opened it and on one of the decoder components there was a small, but undoubtely burn spot. The loco now doesn't run anymore, does anyone can tell what could have happened, bad decoder, a short? Hi frankie, Welcome! I had once exactly the same issue you had, the decoder burnt too. To the trash it went and I never used AC decoders again. From then on, I converted all my AC loks with 5 star motors. I traced my problem to dirty commutator plates, i.e., carbon residue in the grooves that shorted out the commutator. Others have reported similar problems. For such an expensive decoder, its excessive sensitivity to this is ridiculous. No Delta or even old 6080 decoders have no problems with that, even with tremendous amounts of carbon. My suggestion is to cry for you 50 euro loss for about 2 seconds and either install a Delta or fully convert your machine to 5-pole motors. Luis
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frankie		#15 Posted : 03 November 2006 00:26:00(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 692 Location: Italy		Thank you! Actually wasn't that expensive, they run around 27-30 euros now and the loco is nearly new. Anyway, what is needed to complete the conversion we are talking about in this thread? Is it compatible with old locos, before '70s?
		Alessandro I have a CS1 Reloaded!
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rschaffr		#16 Posted : 03 November 2006 02:36:52(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC) Posts: 5,180 Location: Southern New Jersey, USA		Alessandro: Depends on the lok. Some are easier than others. If you identify the lok you want to convert, I or one of the others who have probably done it can help you. I have converted over 20 older loks to digital over the past few years.
		-Ron Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/CS3/6021Connect/60216051), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051) http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/trains.html
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frankie		#17 Posted : 03 November 2006 14:09:11(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 692 Location: Italy		Ron, I have managed to convert some locos with the Uhlenbrock 76200 and the 60760 kit, newer ones, but this incident made me think that the 76200, where you don't have to change the motor, may not be a viable solution. I choose the 76200 also because it has a SUSI plug where an Intellisound module can be connected. This particular one was installed on a "trommelkollector" motor while the others on the older type. I like the idea to have sounds on a loco, I understand the other solution for this is ESU, right? But then you have to change the coil with a permanent magnet, correct?
		Alessandro I have a CS1 Reloaded!
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steventrain		#18 Posted : 03 November 2006 14:12:43(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC) Posts: 31,606 Location: United Kingdom		Welcome to the forum frankie
		Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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rschaffr		#19 Posted : 03 November 2006 14:26:10(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC) Posts: 5,180 Location: Southern New Jersey, USA		Alessandro: Yes, that is correct. I tried a Uhlenbrock 75200 several years ago and was not satisfied with it's performance, so I removed it and did the full conversion on the lok. I always do a 5 pole/ESU conversion now. If there is room for a speaker, I buy the ESU loksounds. If not (i.e. small switchers) I use the LokPilot. The motor parts aren't all that expensive and, at least to me, worth the investment.
		-Ron Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/CS3/6021Connect/60216051), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051) http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/trains.html
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frankie		#20 Posted : 03 November 2006 18:06:37(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 692 Location: Italy		Something like this:http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eB...type=cross_promot_widget. And for the 5 pole motor? Thanks
		Alessandro I have a CS1 Reloaded!
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rschaffr		#21 Posted : 03 November 2006 18:27:18(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC) Posts: 5,180 Location: Southern New Jersey, USA		No. The HAMO magnets are used to convert a 3-pole motor to DC. You retain the 3 pole anker and motorschild. For a 5 pole conversion (depending on the motor) you need: DCM: 386820 Anker 386940 Motorschild 389000 Perm Magnet SFCM: 210888 Anker 224613 Motorschild 224615 Perm Magnet LFCM: 210882 Perm Magnet 210888 Anker (8 tooth) 210881 Motorschild1 or 214118 Anker (7 tooth) 214121 Motorschild2 (for some applications) You may also want: 276770 Lamp sockets for new lamps 231470 Soldering lugs for grounding the motor 600760 Capacitors 516520 Chokes 601460 Brushes
		-Ron Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/CS3/6021Connect/60216051), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051) http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/trains.html
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frankie		#22 Posted : 03 November 2006 18:51:21(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 692 Location: Italy		What DCM,SFCM and LFCM stand for? The P/N are Marklin ones I suppose. Keeping the 3 poles motor, worthed or not?
		Alessandro I have a CS1 Reloaded!
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Hemmerich		#23 Posted : 03 November 2006 18:59:11(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,734 Location: ,		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by perz <br />2) There should be 3 capacitors. Unless your model should be operated under Systems/mfx.
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pa-pauls		#24 Posted : 03 November 2006 20:16:04(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/06/2002(UTC) Posts: 1,841 Location: Norway		So if I convert a digital locomotive with mfx decoder I should remove 2 capacitors and use only the one between the two brush holders Please tell me as I am on the way to convert a V160,,,
		Pål Paulsen Märklin Spur 1 Digital, epoche 3
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rschaffr		#25 Posted : 03 November 2006 20:40:49(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC) Posts: 5,180 Location: Southern New Jersey, USA		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by frankie <br />What DCM,SFCM and LFCM stand for? The P/N are Marklin ones I suppose. Keeping the 3 poles motor, worthed or not? "Drum Commutator Motor", "Small Flat Commutator Motor" and "Large Flat Commutator Motor". Yes, they are Marklin part numbers. I personally have not been satisfied with the driving characteristics of loks that I tried to convert using the existing 3 pole commutators. Some of us here have had success with it, but not me.
		-Ron Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/CS3/6021Connect/60216051), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051) http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/trains.html
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frankie		#26 Posted : 04 November 2006 13:51:18(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 692 Location: Italy		Thank you, I'll be back when I am ready.
		Alessandro I have a CS1 Reloaded!
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