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Offline Kaspar  
#1 Posted : 12 February 2024 13:26:43(UTC)
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Kaspar


Joined: 09/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: norway
Hi,
I picked up a very nice 39710 ICE-S set recently. It’s near mint so I suspect few running hours. The front and rear lighting is LEDs, but they exhibit a constant flickering (regardless of train movement). It reminds me of the flickering some LEDs exhibit when you connect them to AC current without a rectifier. But it seems hard to believe that Marklin delivered these sets with flickering lights… , what could be wrong.. ?

Best Kaspar
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 12 February 2024 13:46:54(UTC)
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JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,130
Location: Paris, France
Hi Kaspar
The 39710 is a Club modell of an ICE-S with C-Sine motor, made in 1999.
At the time, the digital unit was the 6021 Central Unit only one protocol (MM2) and Märklin managed to have a balanced signal to avoid flickering.
Now with more recent digital units (MS2, CS2, CS3) because of multiple protocols the signal can be very unbalanced (far away from a sinusoid signal) and the result is flickering.
One simple way to cure is to use LEDs (or Bulbs) that are connected on one side to the AUX ouput and to the common+ to the other side.

NOTE: be very careful with cabling etc as this C-Sine motor electronics is VERY fragile and there are no spares available
Cheers
Jean
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Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 12 February 2024 13:51:18(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Kaspar Go to Quoted Post
But it seems hard to believe that Marklin delivered these sets with flickering lights… , what could be wrong.. ?
Maybe the flickering is more apparent on modern controllers like CS2 and CS3, but was hardly notable with the CU 6021 that was used when the ICE-S was published.

It is well known that light bulbs in older 37xx locos with a c90 decoder flicker a lot when used with CS2 or CS3, but not with CU 6021.
The shape of the track signal makes a difference here.

A rectifier in the loco can be used to reduce or eliminate the flickering.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 12 February 2024 13:52:49(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
At the time, the digital unit was the 6021 Central Unit only one protocol (MM2) and Märklin managed to have a balanced signal to avoid flickering.
ESU still achieve that with CS1, CS1 reloaded, and ECoS.
Märklin do not achieve this with CS2 and CS3. Such a pity.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Kaspar  
#5 Posted : 12 February 2024 22:28:46(UTC)
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Kaspar


Joined: 09/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: norway
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Kaspar
The 39710 is a Club modell of an ICE-S with C-Sine motor, made in 1999.
At the time, the digital unit was the 6021 Central Unit only one protocol (MM2) and Märklin managed to have a balanced signal to avoid flickering.
Now with more recent digital units (MS2, CS2, CS3) because of multiple protocols the signal can be very unbalanced (far away from a sinusoid signal) and the result is flickering.
One simple way to cure is to use LEDs (or Bulbs) that are connected on one side to the AUX ouput and to the common+ to the other side.

NOTE: be very careful with cabling etc as this C-Sine motor electronics is VERY fragile and there are no spares available
Cheers
Jean


Thanks for the information Jean. I am not really sure what you mean with “the simple cure”. The LED board does not appear to be grounded directly to chassis, all cables go the decoder (orange I believe is ground)

IMG_4044.jpeg
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Offline bph  
#6 Posted : 12 February 2024 22:41:03(UTC)
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bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 996
Note, that the front/rear LED board in the 39710 has reversed polarity compared to the newer LED boards/decoders from Marklin.
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Offline Kaspar  
#7 Posted : 16 February 2024 20:25:49(UTC)
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Kaspar


Joined: 09/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: norway
Originally Posted by: Kaspar Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Kaspar
The 39710 is a Club modell of an ICE-S with C-Sine motor, made in 1999.
At the time, the digital unit was the 6021 Central Unit only one protocol (MM2) and Märklin managed to have a balanced signal to avoid flickering.
Now with more recent digital units (MS2, CS2, CS3) because of multiple protocols the signal can be very unbalanced (far away from a sinusoid signal) and the result is flickering.
One simple way to cure is to use LEDs (or Bulbs) that are connected on one side to the AUX ouput and to the common+ to the other side.

NOTE: be very careful with cabling etc as this C-Sine motor electronics is VERY fragile and there are no spares available
Cheers
Jean


Thanks for the information Jean. I am not really sure what you mean with “the simple cure”. The LED board does not appear to be grounded directly to chassis, all cables go the decoder (orange I believe is ground)

IMG_4044.jpeg


I think I see the problem: in the rear engine unit there is no decoder board and the rear LEDs are grounded to the chassis. Because the switchover mechanism is located here also, this “polluted” ground is sent forward through the carriages and to the front LED. Meaning some serious rewiring is needed here in order to avoid the LEDs getting ground straight from the track. I suppose rectifiers could be added but complicated ..
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Offline Kaspar  
#8 Posted : 16 February 2024 21:15:00(UTC)
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Kaspar


Joined: 09/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: norway
Originally Posted by: Kaspar Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Kaspar
The 39710 is a Club modell of an ICE-S with C-Sine motor, made in 1999.
At the time, the digital unit was the 6021 Central Unit only one protocol (MM2) and Märklin managed to have a balanced signal to avoid flickering.
Now with more recent digital units (MS2, CS2, CS3) because of multiple protocols the signal can be very unbalanced (far away from a sinusoid signal) and the result is flickering.
One simple way to cure is to use LEDs (or Bulbs) that are connected on one side to the AUX ouput and to the common+ to the other side.

NOTE: be very careful with cabling etc as this C-Sine motor electronics is VERY fragile and there are no spares available
Cheers
Jean


Thanks for the information Jean. I am not really sure what you mean with “the simple cure”. The LED board does not appear to be grounded directly to chassis, all cables go the decoder (orange I believe is ground)

IMG_4044.jpeg
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Offline bph  
#9 Posted : 16 February 2024 23:09:10(UTC)
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bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 996
Originally Posted by: Kaspar Go to Quoted Post
I think I see the problem: in the rear engine unit there is no decoder board and the rear LEDs are grounded to the chassis. Because the switchover mechanism is located here also, this “polluted” ground is sent forward through the carriages and to the front LED. Meaning some serious rewiring is needed here in order to avoid the LEDs getting ground straight from the track. I suppose rectifiers could be added but complicated ..


The pickup shoe switchover is located in the motorised end.
the switch in the unmotorized end only switches the "rear" led board red/white according to direction, and the chassis ground is not sent forward. (each wagon/locomotive has its own ground pickup)
you might find some more relevant information here: https://www.marklin-users.net/forum/posts/t49115-ICE-S-39710-Sine-C-upgrade--new-msd3-decoder-and-driver--Keeping-the-original-motor
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Offline Bill L  
#10 Posted : 17 February 2024 07:31:23(UTC)
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Bill L

United States   
Joined: 08/12/2021(UTC)
Posts: 86
Location: California, Sonoma County
Please be very careful with the hard white wires connected to the C-sine motor. Jean mentions this in Post #1. I have first hand experience. The soldered connections are very sensitive to movement and you will notice Marklin put a translucent white glue on the end of the wires. This lok does not use a ribbon wire like the later C-sine models do. I broke my white wire connector wires somehow. The electrical connection became very bad. You touch the wires and the lok moves, then it stops etc, so I broke the connections.

I had to use the 3750 motorized lok as replacement. It is not C-sine, but no one knows, when I run this train now.
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Offline marklinist5999  
#11 Posted : 17 February 2024 11:32:07(UTC)
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marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,142
Location: Michigan, Troy
Hello all, regarding the motors, I don't recall the topic post, and I don't want to bump this thread....So, besides the led retrofitting, for replacing dead C sine motors and upgrading to digital for older analog 3 pole types, I saw that Micromotor makes bell armature can motors and mounting blocks for Marklin, Fleischman,etc. locos. Modellbahn Union shop Kamen has them.
The mounting blocks appear to be 3 D fabricated.
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