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Offline Minok  
#1 Posted : 28 January 2024 23:12:35(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,311
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
As a preface , this is somewhat motivated by the “new hotness” that is the LokStore Digital LoDi decoders (operator 4wd-ac) which allow you to feed AC switching power to the Märklin turnout motors , to supposedly solve the issue of the motors failing to switch after some time.

So the idea is rather than DC power to the coil driven motors, feed them with real AC analog power to move the coil core.

The usual comment is to use the existing railroad transformers such as the Märklin 6646, which has the yellow 17 v AC 32va output.

The thing is , if you don’t have one, those cost $115 each. You get that variable AC track power output with knob that will never be used in this use case.

So why not just buy a 16v AC door bell transformer (note: assuming you will build this into a box to keep the 120v side safe and blocked from contact ) that can be had for $24 for a 30va unit.

Those that have the Märklin units or know about their insides , does the yellow fixed AC output stage have any additional protection on it that I’d not get by using a door bell transformer with an appropriately sized fuse, and a proper plastic box around the line voltage stuff ?
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline BenP  
#2 Posted : 29 January 2024 05:06:58(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
As a preface , this is somewhat motivated by the “new hotness” that is the LokStore Digital LoDi decoders (operator 4wd-ac) which allow you to feed AC switching power to the Märklin turnout motors , to supposedly solve the issue of the motors failing to switch after some time.

So the idea is rather than DC power to the coil driven motors, feed them with real AC analog power to move the coil core.

The usual comment is to use the existing railroad transformers such as the Märklin 6646, which has the yellow 17 v AC 32va output.

The thing is , if you don’t have one, those cost $115 each. You get that variable AC track power output with knob that will never be used in this use case.

So why not just buy a 16v AC door bell transformer (note: assuming you will build this into a box to keep the 120v side safe and blocked from contact ) that can be had for $24 for a 30va unit.

Those that have the Märklin units or know about their insides , does the yellow fixed AC output stage have any additional protection on it that I’d not get by using a door bell transformer with an appropriately sized fuse, and a proper plastic box around the line voltage stuff ?


I use inexpensive 16-18V AC wall power transformer instead of 6646 without any issue. These have power overload and shorts fuse included. Btw, neither are switching power supplies.
Digital M (+ some K) track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories, and small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by BenP
Offline PeFu  
#3 Posted : 29 January 2024 09:29:19(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,210
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
As a preface , this is somewhat motivated by the “new hotness” that is the LokStore Digital LoDi decoders (operator 4wd-ac) which allow you to feed AC switching power to the Märklin turnout motors , to supposedly solve the issue of the motors failing to switch after some time.

So the idea is rather than DC power to the coil driven motors, feed them with real AC analog power to move the coil core.

I have never read that DC power would be the reason for Märklin turnout motor (microswitch) failure, only that the digital (square DC) power could be a source for that?

However, I’m feeding my LDT turnout decoders with 20 V pure DC from an ”old” laptop charger, by recommendation from Peter Littfinski, the LDT founder. Never had a problem, so far.

Smile
Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V10
Offline Minok  
#4 Posted : 29 January 2024 10:46:20(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,311
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: PeFu Go to Quoted Post

I have never read that DC power would be the reason for Märklin turnout motor (microswitch) failure, only that the digital (square DC) power could be a source for that?


The validity of the claim I cannot speak to. The claim is the DC driving can , over time , magnetize the core , making it less mobile. Some claim their non-functioning Märklin switch motors started working again after using AC power to drive the motors rather than the DC via the M83. Whether the AC driving or the voltage and resulting velocity of the core resolved the issues I cannot say. If (and when) I have a motor failure I’ll do an autopsy and see what’s what.

My interest is just if a simple doorbell transformer , which produces pure ac stepped down from line level , is suitable as an alternative to the fixed light output of the more expensive adjustable transformer’s fixed voltage output.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 29 January 2024 12:18:07(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Those that have the Märklin units or know about their insides , does the yellow fixed AC output stage have any additional protection on it that I’d not get by using a door bell transformer with an appropriately sized fuse, and a proper plastic box around the line voltage stuff ?
The 6647 quickly switches off in case of a short - much quicker than my older blue Märklin transformers. I think that is important when driving trains.
For turnouts, there will be no derailments causing shorts.
A door bell transformer, even with an extra fuse, is not a toy. But you're an adult and IMHO it will be safe for use by an adult.

Don't go to extremes. I read about a chap using a transformer for halogen lamps with his model rail road: 105 W or more more and switching off at 90°C or so. When he had a short, the thin 0.14mm² vanished in thin air instantly, so the thin cable worked as overload protection.
Staying at smaller sizes like 30 VA or using fuses for 2 A or 3 A makes sense IMHO.

An overheating turnout motor that also damages the turnout will cost some money, so better play it sufficiently safe.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Studedude  
#6 Posted : 13 March 2024 02:36:55(UTC)
Studedude

United States   
Joined: 05/03/2024(UTC)
Posts: 3
Location: California Central Coast
4626D12D-9BB8-4CCC-91C8-A8C7304FFB09.jpegB19D27C0-4A0C-4FD5-A9B1-87793185AF1A.jpeg

Here is the inside of a 6646 I just got off the Bay for under $40, both the fixed and variable outputs have very fast acting self resetting protection. This unit had intermittent dead spots on the variable output due to the dielectric grease the factory hooped all over the windings which had solidified. It works great now and for just slightly more than a decent hardware store doorbell transformer.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Studedude
Offline Minok  
#7 Posted : 13 March 2024 03:27:16(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,311
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: Studedude Go to Quoted Post
4626D12D-9BB8-4CCC-91C8-A8C7304FFB09.jpegB19D27C0-4A0C-4FD5-A9B1-87793185AF1A.jpeg

Here is the inside of a 6646 I just got off the Bay for under $40, both the fixed and variable outputs have very fast acting self resetting protection. This unit had intermittent dead spots on the variable output due to the dielectric grease the factory hooped all over the windings which had solidified. It works great now and for just slightly more than a decent hardware store doorbell transformer.


Super. Thanks. That makes it easy enough to build one’s own out of a doorbell transformer and some extra electronics since I only would need the fixed vac output.

Now to find the modern equivalent of the older bimetallic temperature sensitive fuses.

ESB 707 3CH - opens at 105c

Can find some 100c ones easily enough.
The Sekicon ST22 on Amazon series looks promising.

IMG_9525.jpeg
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Minok
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