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Offline Alex H  
#1 Posted : 07 December 2023 15:56:15(UTC)
Alex H

United Kingdom   
Joined: 25/03/2017(UTC)
Posts: 107
Location: England, Devon
Hi everyone.

I am intending to use current sensing to tell iTrain when a block of track on my layout is occupied and I saw a video which seemed to suggest that the best way was to cut the outer rail on the Marklin C track. This surprised me as I assumed that it would be the centre power rail that needed to be isolated.

I was intending to try using the red Marklin rail isolators to achieve this and then wire the power spade terminal under the rail back to the CS decoder. Would this work or is it better to physically cut the rail underneath?

Thanks for any advice on this

Alex
Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 07 December 2023 16:34:53(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,130
Location: Paris, France
Hi Alex
Here are remarks (just my personal opinion):
- current sensing is good for 2 rail operation but in 3 rails, this is definitely an inferior solution. Why, because only slider-equipped vehicle are detected. At least, in 2 rails using a resistive paint on the axles, you may detect ALL vehicles
- isulation using C Track: the best way is to use the red sleeves 74030 and to cut the rail 2 electric bridges. I used a diamond disk to cut the rail in very precise locations (uncoupler operation, etc) but it has drawbacks: difficult to do it in-situ, leaves metallic dust that is good for ghost detections, it is irreversible, takes time. So I am not a big fan of this.
- to be fair, using Märklin sleeves 74030 has its drawback: sometimes the rails supposed to be insulated are so close that it makes an unwanted contact (using old C-Track, using it near the start of a ramp), there are easily damaged and should be replaced without hesitation (happened to me that re-using those sleeves has caused un unwanted detection after quite some time. In few cases, I had to file rails to avoid unwanted contacts.

I hope this helps
Jean
Offline Alex H  
#3 Posted : 07 December 2023 19:11:54(UTC)
Alex H

United Kingdom   
Joined: 25/03/2017(UTC)
Posts: 107
Location: England, Devon
Hi Jean

Thanks for your thoughts. - much appreciated.

All of my locos will be slider fitted and iTrain will know the length of most trains so hopefully all will work Ok.

Are you using three rail, and if so, can I ask how you handle block occupancy?

I can see that cutting the rail from the underside of the track would be tricky, but I guess if the isolation sleeves don't work, then I will have to work a way to cut them. I will do a small test area first to see how it goes.

Thanks again

Alex
Offline kiwiAlan  
#4 Posted : 07 December 2023 20:25:32(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,109
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Alex H Go to Quoted Post

I can see that cutting the rail from the underside of the track would be tricky, but I guess if the isolation sleeves don't work, then I will have to work a way to cut them.


You have to cut the strap between the rails if you are using s88 style train sensing where the wheels are bridging the the rails together. Remember there is a strap at both ends of the track piece, and both need to be cut.

If you are using some other scheme then maybe you can get away without cutting the strap.

Offline Alex H  
#5 Posted : 07 December 2023 20:44:35(UTC)
Alex H

United Kingdom   
Joined: 25/03/2017(UTC)
Posts: 107
Location: England, Devon
Hi, Thanks for your thoughts.

This is very new to me so apologies if these are basic questions:

I am using the YaMoRC YD6016LN-CS Current Sensor and Marklin C three track rail, so presumably I need to isolate the slider rather than the wheels, is that right?

In terms of cutting the strap, each block consists of multiple length of track, so I assume that I would cut the straps on the first and last length of rail?

Alex


Offline rhfil  
#6 Posted : 07 December 2023 21:42:15(UTC)
rhfil

United States   
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 427
Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
The problem with center track sensing is cars or locos with sliders will activate the sensor so cars or locos without sliders will not be noted and the block will appear empty. That might cause collisions if you have a very long consist and a short block. Also, if your loco/car with slider goes beyond the sensor it will release the block immediately. And if the loco has a very slow acceleration you might have a collision.
Offline Alex H  
#7 Posted : 07 December 2023 21:53:51(UTC)
Alex H

United Kingdom   
Joined: 25/03/2017(UTC)
Posts: 107
Location: England, Devon
Yes I understand the problems and issues, but I am also not sure I understand how the sensing will work using the wheels and they dont carry and current
Again, apologies if I am missing something obvious
Offline PeFu  
#8 Posted : 07 December 2023 22:08:38(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,210
Originally Posted by: Alex H Go to Quoted Post
Yes I understand the problems and issues, but I am also not sure I understand how the sensing will work using the wheels and they dont carry and current
Again, apologies if I am missing something obvious

If you already have a bunch of current sensing modules and are happy with the disadvantages described above: Carry on! I used current sensing when having M tracks, these worked fine.

However, then you should NOT cut any straps on the C tracks, but connect the wire from the sensing module to the middle rail. Of course, isolate the track end connector, were you want the sensing track to end.

I guess 99 % of the hobbyists on C tracks use earth sensing modules (cutting the strap between the outer rails).
Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V10
Offline Alex H  
#9 Posted : 07 December 2023 22:24:00(UTC)
Alex H

United Kingdom   
Joined: 25/03/2017(UTC)
Posts: 107
Location: England, Devon
Thanks for the reassurance.

I am assuming earth sensing is also called ground sensing, which I cannot use. I have a Z21 (Black) controller and apparently ground sensing is a no, no!

Thanks again
Offline rhfil  
#10 Posted : 07 December 2023 22:27:41(UTC)
rhfil

United States   
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 427
Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
The way a contact track works is cutting off the connection between the outside rails results in their being electrically isolated and remain so until the wheels of an AC car make a connection. And that occurs as long as AC cars are on the contact track. Finally if you are happy with just sensing cars with sliders you can just use a circuit track and avoid all the hassle. Plus it has the added advantage of being able to sense which direction the train is going.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by rhfil
Offline Alex H  
#11 Posted : 07 December 2023 22:31:33(UTC)
Alex H

United Kingdom   
Joined: 25/03/2017(UTC)
Posts: 107
Location: England, Devon
Thank you for your post.

I will have a go and see what happens.

Thanks too everyone for their help and comments to this elderly newbie to digital !BigGrin BigGrin

A
Offline PeFu  
#12 Posted : 07 December 2023 22:38:26(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,210
Originally Posted by: Alex H Go to Quoted Post
I have a Z21 (Black) controller and apparently ground sensing is a no, no!

Is it? Cool

http://yamorc.de/products/?singleproduct=1244

If you intend to use Loconet as feedback bus, your Z21 shouldn’t care if you have ground sensing or current sensing modules…



Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V10
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by PeFu
H0
Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 07 December 2023 22:39:21(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Alex H Go to Quoted Post
I am assuming earth sensing is also called ground sensing, which I cannot use. I have a Z21 (Black) controller and apparently ground sensing is a no, no!
Who told you so?
I think they can be used.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Alex H  
#14 Posted : 07 December 2023 22:50:33(UTC)
Alex H

United Kingdom   
Joined: 25/03/2017(UTC)
Posts: 107
Location: England, Devon
Karst Drench from YaMoRC - "Z21 is not allowed to be used with Ground Detection. It will blow both Z21 Hbridge and YD6016LN-GND"

I am using YD6016LN-CS

Offline Martti Mäntylä  
#15 Posted : 08 December 2023 00:34:04(UTC)
Martti Mäntylä

Finland   
Joined: 15/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 398
Location: Uusimaa, Helsinki
To me it seems that in your setup using the 74030 red sleeves to isolate the track power of the blocks will be sufficient, and no track surgery is needed.
- Martti M.
Era III analog & digital (Rocrail, CAN Digital Bahn, Gleisbox/MS2, K83/K84), C & M tracks, some Spur 1
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Martti Mäntylä
Offline perz  
#16 Posted : 29 December 2023 23:51:37(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
Coming late into this discussion, but I think I should share some of my experience.

16 years ago, we built a C-track layout at my work for demonstration purposes. We decided to use current sensing to identify the position of the train on the layout (we only ran one train). We used the red isolation pieces and we had no problems with it during the 8 years we were running it. But it was a permanent layout, don't know how well it works if you rebuild your layout frequently. We used a rather elaborated current sensing method, with signal transformers to get the detection circuit isolated from the track. It turned out to be a very reliable solution. The drawback that you can only detect the loco with the slider is not a big problem in reality. The control program can know the train length and calculate which section(s) that are occupied.

We made experiments with normal contact track, it worked rather well but not with the 100 % reliability we could achieve with the current sensing method. We built the electronics ourselves so I do not know how well the commercial devices work.

I later found out that the current sensing devices that we built for the layout could be modified to instead provide MFX feedback from track sections powered by a standard booster. I have never used that on any layout though, only tested that it works.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by perz
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