Very good indeed signals plan.

Fredrik, I guess you mean the two I signals?

Alfred, not what you meant, but can I place some Viessmann Warte signals at the turn table for a change? Or should I skip those turn table signals completely?

Timaximus

Hello Hans,

You do not have to sorry!

Please tell me your version.
Also for the Benelux layout, if you like.

Thanks in advance.

I'm going nowhere, even not to the MRR store, yet!
I will go when this topic is done.

Timaximus

i would say the 'inbound' one should be of type I (Hp0/Hp2) because after that signal is a station and there are double switches on the track. The 'outbound' one depends on what comes after on the track, if it is a simple block a signal of type 'H' (Hp0/Hp1) would be sufficient.

exactly that's it.

Meanwhile you write I updated the previous reaction.
Now the signals can show all the necessary images.

Let's say:
1) when the train have to turn left or right we get image Hp2 (SLOW).
2) when the train is running straight on we have image Hp1 (GO).

So when a signal must be able to show both SLOW and GO separately we get a Hp0/Hp1/Hp2 signal (Blue).

I think the last image (top) fits also your final reaction.
Because now all signals can show GO only when a passenger train drives through (all switches straight on).

Timaximus

Hello,

Yes I'm still waiting on Hans his story.

Meanwhile a Dutch colleague gives his theory too and say that the shunting signals are normally not on the main tracks.
They are just to prevent unallowed access to the main tracks from side tracks.

The only difference between the signal layout we already have is that al the shunting signals are removed from the main tracks.

The story is: when a train needs to shunt from/to either the turn table or the coal/freight area, the operator in the signal house set's al the main signals leading to the secured area, on RED (STOP).
So, no outside train is allowed to access the secured area and the shunting loc has the whole secured area for him self.
When the shunting activities are done, ore the rest of the shunting activities are outside the secured area, the operator in the signal house set's the main signals on GREEN or YELLOW again and train outside the secured area may enter.

Timaximus

If you say they have to be all shunting signals I will make them shunt.
I'm shunting all the time if you ask me (from theory to theory).

Moment please while I <s>shunt</s> change the image.

I was not sure if the 2 extra signals had to be shunting signals or Hp0/Hp2 signals.
Because trains coming from the coal/freight depot are leaving the depot area via that (opposite) track.

Timaximus

Hi,

now 2 switching-signals are missing - on on each track 6 & 7 (should be standing just beside the other one on each track...)

And, just realized you threw in another pair of switches - so now the Hp0/2 signals again could be useful on tracks in the freight yard... At the same time, now it's possible to let a train leave in the right direction from the track normally used for traffic to the left - given this possibility a signal in direction right could be useful (Hp0/2).

On track 4, Hp0/1/2 is useful, as you could leave the station through track 6 and then return to the right track... If only leaving straight out from track 4, only Hp0/1 is neccessary.

Also the "Rangierhalt" sign is positioned on the wrong spot on track 4, should be located beside the same sign on the other track (if no shunting is allowed after that sign, no shunting signals should appear after it either, as shunting is not allowed).

Fredrik.

Fredrik,

Yes I was thinking about the two Hp0/Hp2 signals too.
But I forgot the two Sh0/Sh1 signals again. [:I]
If you don't mind I update the image above (no new image).

Are your talking about track 4 or track 3 with the Hp0/Hp1/Hp2 signal?
Are you sure about "Rangierhalt" on track 4?

Timaximus

I meant the blue signal on track 4. The entry (Einfahrsignal) on track 3 is correct.

And yes I'm sure about the "Rangierhalt". This sign tells no switching is allowed beyond that point, so what's then the point in having signals that allow something that's not allowed...??

Fredrik.

Exactly!

Fredrik.

Fredrik,

Can we give this signal plan version number 1.0? [:o)]



Timaximus

Ok, now we have a signal plan!

With this signal plan (if nothing change [:o)]) I need 16 more Viessmann shunting signals and a total of 10 Viessmann decoders (turn-outs included).

Let's wait what Hans and maybe others has to say about this signal plan.

Timaximus

Hello Hans,

I have plenty of time.
You take your time too of course.

I'm not intend to hurry things up.
Do I build this latout in a hurry??? [:o)]

Thanks anyway

And don't hurry, be happy!

Regards,

Timaximus

Hello all,

I had a discussion the past days with my Dutch colleagues.
And they say indeed that we do not need to place shunting signals everywhere.

For example: shunting from track (4) to track (13) is covered by one shunting signal only.

They also say that the track plan is actually not ideal for a good signal plan and advised me to introduce an extra shunting track (16).
So, trains do not need to shunt via the main tracks anymore.
Exceptions are track (3) and (4).

Now trains coming from track (9) can drive directly to the tracks (1, 2).
And those trains can leave by shunting via track (16) and then drive to track (4, 10).

Trains coming from track (3) can drive (shunt) into track (16) and drive backwards into tracks (1, 2).
And those trains can leave the tracks (1, 2) directly to track (8) via the extra turn-outs.

On tracks (3, 4) it is possible to turn a train and leave (after turning) the tracks (3, 4) via the opposite direction and opposite tracks.

That result in two extra signals which are hatched (green/yellow).

I think it should be shunting signals (Sh0/Sh1) but it is also possible it need to be main signals (Hp0/Hp2) after all.

But the whole depot area is not a station at all.
So, I'm not sure yet.

If we all agree we can take this last signal plan as a new start for this topic.

The big orange T is an signal house.

Timaximus

Hi again,

well I did propose the "Ausziehgleis" (track 16) earlier but you said there was no space...

With the current situation:

From track 9 no shunting signal is needed at the entry of the station (be it a station or not, I guess the german word "Betriebsstelle" would do). You simply have to enter the station with a main signal. Only when entered you may switch to shunting movement.

Thereby, in order to allow trains to run directly to tracks 1 & 2 you must place some kind of a signal at the end of the track (even if it's a dead-end), the marks the end of the route - which normally would be the "dead-end" with signal (Sh0).

To start a train, you need a main-signal - so should trains leave tracks 1 and/or 2 the need main-signals, else not. And as you now have the "Ziehgleis", you could switch a leaving train from those tracks to 3 or 4 and let the train depart from there.

The hatched signals should be main-signals in combination with switching-signals if trains are to leave from ther, and shunting is to take place.

Remember:

To depart a train a main-signal is needed.

To start or proceed a shunting movement a shunting signal is required (or - shunting movements may preceed on allowance in any other way).

Now - in order to shunt from track 4 to track 13 the dispatcher can with the shunting-signal give allowance to pass the turnout. When passed he now can not (by means of a signal) issue the allowance to enter track 13. Thus he has to give this allowance some other way - then you probably need to put a phone, or something near the turnout so the engine-driver can call the dispatcher for allowance. Then a signal is not needed in this case...

Same gors for shunting from track 4 to the turntable, engine-driver must be issued an allowance, somehow, that he's allowed to pass the turnout leading towards the turnout...

As you see there are numerous of ways to put signals...

Therefore - you have to decide what type of movements that are to be allowed and in which directions on each track - then deploy either signals where needed, or issue another possibility for the engeine-crew to contact the dispatcher, unless he will come to them (unlikely as you now put out a "signalling-tower/house")... The dispatcher will prefer to set signals!

Off-course it's also possible not to use any switching-signals at all - but that would mean all switches are to be set locally by the train-crew (or people "Preisers" on the ground) - yet that would not allow for train-movements while shunting... (as the dispatcher must hold all the keys to the switches before he may allow any trains).

Fredrik.

Hello Fredrik,

You mentioned it before, the extra shunting track.
I say that there was no space.
But that was true actually.

So I abandoned the nice Brass bridges that father made (I win the fight). [}:)][:o)]

I will insert your new comments later.
For now we first change the table and install the new tracks.

The Dutch colleagues also say that the "Rangierhalt" signal sign is not placed on the opposite tracks (without a drive in signal).[8)]

The dead signals are already on the end buffers.

It is still difficult for me to know when we speak about a train driving movement (main signals) or when we speak about a train shunting movement (shunting signals) or when we speak about a combination of driving and shunting (combination of signals).

Regarding my last words about the hatched signals (green/yellow).

I know that I am still signal dummy [:I], but do you say that even when the coal depot is not a station but just an industrial area, you still get Main signals because also coal trains are leaving from those NON-STATION/SIDE tracks ???

FIRST I NEED TO REORDER ALL THIS INFO REGARDING SIGNALS INSIDE MY HEAD.

And after that I will first write down the train movement that I planned.
And from there we maybe can come to the final correct signal plan.

So far thanks to everybody who is trying to help me (hopeles person)!

Timaximus

Hello Fredrik,

1) Yes the coal/freight depot is track (1, 2).

When the term "Industrial area" means no signals then it is no industrial area!
I want as many signals as possible but in a realistic setup.
And when it is better or easier to name the whole area a station then we call it a station.
Or maybe we just abandon those terms and only place signals based on the wanted train movements?

2) Yes I agree with the non-ideal track setup.
That is why I take 2 different colours.
The turn table (brown) is separate from the coal/freight depot (blue).

But I think the turn table is not the problem and most of us will agree with the current setup (just the 4 shunting signals where the trains enter the tracks (3, 4).
So, forget the turn table and let’s concentrate on the coal/freight depot with track (1, 2), the extra shunting track (16) and turning/waiting tracks (3, 4).

3) I make an aerial picture of the whole area.
We can see the two coal/freight depot tracks, the turn-outs in the back and the place where the extra shunting track will come.

photo
photo

The last signal plan, still without extra (Hp0/Hp2) signals on the side tracks but with the extra (Hp0/Hp2) on tracks (3, 4)



Quotation: all side tracks (from the coal/freight depot and the loc depot) are within the "secured" area and therefor only need a shunting signal.

Timaximus

Hello Fredrik,

Your track plan suggestion looks good (and thanks for the image).
But I really do not have enough space for that.
See the aerial picture.

I can probably place/fit the turn-outs after the left crossing but then there will be no track length left for trains and cars.

So, actions like turning trains (change loc side of a train) need to be done on the main tracks.
But I think that is not a problem for the (Era III) train sequence I planned.

The track where you planned signal B1 ad P21 is too short to contain a loc so I leave those signals.

I know about your extra shunting signals outside track (3, 4) but not everyone agreed with these signals yet. So, for now I leave those signals. A can place those signals always later, just drill a hole in the table, AAAAAAAAAAND DONE!

When I keep my last signal plan (version E), as it is now, is it ok then?

Timaximus

Hello Fredrik,

I'm sorry I do not have the space to make it optimal.
But if we talk about optimal, the Benelux track plan is not optimal either.
I wished I had a longer room.

Regarding the signals I must go on the advice you, Hans and others gave me.

1) When we look at the last signal plan (E), can we say that the Coal depot and the Loc depot are ok?
2) When we look to the main signals (red) for the signal blocks, are they ok?
3) When we look to the main signals (yellow) for the leaving (turned) trains, are they ok?
4) When we look to the extra shunting signals (outside tracks 3 and 4) we have different ideas, but we can discuss about this, right?

I hope I understand this theory someday and have an almost realistic signal plan that fits the current track plan.

Timaximus

Hi,

1-4: Yes!! And Ira's proposal - I totally agree!!!!!!

Btw,

you could also try and change the turnouts in the left end, making the x-turnout a 3-way instead, put the x-turnout on track 3, giving you the missing new track 3... (i.e. not having cross-over from both tracks).

All signals (except the fore signal) on the window side of the table are installed and working!

I think it will look nice when the scenery is done too.
But that will be in a year or so .

photo
photo

I also changed the final signal plan a bit by adding more fore signals and re-introduce the already mentioned drive out signals on track 1 and 2.

image

Timaximus

Looking just so good.