ICE loosing power

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ICE loosing power - Decoder issue?

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cintrans		#1 Posted : 02 December 2023 14:01:35(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 11/07/2018(UTC) Posts: 172 Location: Aruba (general), Oranjestad		Hi I have two ICE sets, one is a 402 (M# 29786) upgraded with a 60760 kit, the other one the 401 "Elisabeth" (M# 3750) as it came from the factory. So both have the 5* motor, the first one with the simple 60760 FX decoder, the second one with the original decoder. When running them on my layout, the 402 runs perfect on the whole loop, no slowing down on ramps or anything. The 401 however seems to loose speed on the far end of the layout and when ascending the ramp (also on the far end). I have only one feeder on the track, but none of my other loks do this.... I am guessing the original decoder in the 401 is to blame for this, but before replacing it, i would like to hear some opinions on this... Regards Jean-Pierre

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marklinist5999		#2 Posted : 02 December 2023 15:20:25(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 3,142 Location: Michigan, Troy		Seems to be going around. If your rails and wheels are all clean, and the motor is not a can type, has good brushes, and a clean commutator, it may be the decoder. How many cars? My Starlight Express from year 2000 runs sluggish after being idle for a long time. It's not the motor. The decoder takes at least 10 min. of running to warm up. It will just stall and need a nudge.


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cintrans		#3 Posted : 02 December 2023 18:36:32(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 11/07/2018(UTC) Posts: 172 Location: Aruba (general), Oranjestad		Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Seems to be going around. If your rails and wheels are all clean, and the motor is not a can type, has good brushes, and a clean commutator, it may be the decoder. How many cars? With or without cars between the 2 units, makes no difference.... When the train gets closer to the feeder, it drives as it is supposed to..... So it seems the motor does not get enough current at the far end of the layout, but none of my other trains behave like this.... Regards Jean-Pierre

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JohnjeanB		#4 Posted : 02 December 2023 18:45:10(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC) Posts: 3,130 Location: Paris, France		Hi Jean Pierre Yes, before blaming the decoder you must verify the following: - the other cars are rolling smoothly and lightly (no big friction) if not, inspect the wheel for dirt on the rolling surface, wanting of lubrication on steel needles and excess of pressure on the mass return blades - the traction tires are clean and tight (not rotating freely in their grove - the motor brushes are okay and the spring do not apply excessive force - the rotor has not burnt (darker windings and smaller resistance. Motor issues are not that rare with Märklin Next, the decoder. The one included in the 60760 kit is a very simplified one without regulation. It is cheap and OK but not the best in the Märklin range. A mLD3 or mSD3 should mark an improvement. Cheers Jean
		My layout videos latest vid marshalling yard My Layout

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Ross		#5 Posted : 02 December 2023 22:26:39(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 872 Location: Sydney, NSW		Hi Jean-Pierre/All, How many cars do you have in the train consists? What is the grade in % you run the train up and down? Your problem of poor running is two fold. 1. The train lighting with bulbs comsumes alot of power. 2. The original decoders are old and have no load compensation. What you should try. 1. Switch the lights off does the train speed improve? 2. Use a modern decoder such as a LokPilot 5 and wire it to the motor only, you should notice a great improvement in speed and load control. What I have done to all my ICE 2 trains. Replaced all bulbs with LED lighting. Added a motor to the non-motorized end unit Use LP5 decoders as these have very good load control. The results is I can run a 14 car set with the two end units 417cm length at 4.23Kg up a 4% grade on my layout. Have fun with your experimentation. Originally Posted by: cintrans Hi I have two ICE sets, one is a 402 (M# 29786) upgraded with a 60760 kit, the other one the 401 "Elisabeth" (M# 3750) as it came from the factory. So both have the 5* motor, the first one with the simple 60760 FX decoder, the second one with the original decoder. Regards Jean-Pierre
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Bill L		#6 Posted : 02 December 2023 22:49:16(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/12/2021(UTC) Posts: 86 Location: California, Sonoma County		I bought my ICE on Ebay and it came with a strong magnet underneath the power assembly so that it can run at fast speeds on curves without derailing (makes the lok hug the rails). The magnet does slow the lok down when it first starts from a stopped position. So, I am not sure whether you have this magnet or not? Not sure if the magnet comes in all ICE sets or just in certain ones.

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cintrans		#7 Posted : 03 December 2023 00:01:48(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 11/07/2018(UTC) Posts: 172 Location: Aruba (general), Oranjestad		Thanks for the tips Jean & Ross I have normally 4 coaches between the lok and the end car, but even without the coaches the 401 (Elisabeth) looses power the further it gets away from the feeder. The grade of the ramp is about 4% and all the coaches have LED strips instead of bulbs. I will check the motor next, as said both have the same 5* motor, but the one in the 402 is brand new and as i bought the 401 used, i have no idea how many "miles" it has on the teller.... it would make sense that if the brushes are worn or the collector dirty the motor would require more current to keep up.... No magnets on mine Bill Thanks again! Jean-Pierre

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Ross		#8 Posted : 03 December 2023 01:21:56(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 872 Location: Sydney, NSW		Hi Jean-Pierre, Loosing power away from the power feeder is an indication you need more power feeders both O and B feeds and probably a thicker gauge bus feeder wire. What track are you using C-track or K-track? What central unit/boosters are you using? A well serviced motor is always good. You mentioned you have LED lighting strips in the cars, how many LEDs per car? Do you have a current limiting resistor that feeds the lighting strip which are designed for 12V? Run the train with LED lighting on at high speed then turn off the lighting, if the train increases speed your lighting is using too much current. I only use 4 LEDs per car using the original light diffuser. Originally Posted by: cintrans Thanks for the tips Jean & Ross I have normally 4 coaches between the lok and the end car, but even without the coaches the 401 (Elisabeth) looses power the further it gets away from the feeder. The grade of the ramp is about 4% and all the coaches have LED strips instead of bulbs. I will check the motor next, as said both have the same 5* motor, but the one in the 402 is brand new and as i bought the 401 used, i have no idea how many "miles" it has on the teller.... it would make sense that if the brushes are worn or the collector dirty the motor would require more current to keep up.... No magnets on mine Bill Thanks again! Jean-Pierre
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cintrans		#9 Posted : 03 December 2023 02:53:25(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 11/07/2018(UTC) Posts: 172 Location: Aruba (general), Oranjestad		Hi Ross I am using K-track with a 6021 /6035 combo Cleaned up the motor and brushes, and although it may have improved somewhat, it is still not what i would like it to be... The LED's are the ones you buy on a roll and cut at the length you need. Per coach i have 24 LED's, a 10K resistor, a rectifier and a capacitor. I use the same setup in all my passenger cars. Switching the lights off improves things a bit, but not a whole lot.... When i switch out the lok with the 402 lok (leaving the 401 end car in place) on the same consist, it drives beautiful without slowing down where the 401 slows down.... Are you familiar with the 401 "Elisabeth" (#3750)? The lok needs the end car to be connected to close the circuit so it can move. I have a feeling that this decoder set-up is the root cause of the slowing down issue.... My 402 is basically the same lok, but as it has a simple 60760 decoder it does not care about the end car. Coach lights are switched via a small relay and F1 instead of F0 Jean-Pierre

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marklinist5999		#10 Posted : 03 December 2023 12:53:38(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 3,142 Location: Michigan, Troy		My ice 3 has a direction dependent decoder.Item #37780. Removing the leading driving coach only prohihibits direction change. It will still run in the selected direction. You installed LEDs that you cut to length, and they may be causing resistance to the motor control in the decoder. I've also used those LEDs in structures and had problems with brightness and heat.


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H0		#11 Posted : 03 December 2023 18:27:55(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,267 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: cintrans I am guessing the original decoder in the 401 is to blame for this, but before replacing it, i would like to hear some opinions on this... It is a feature, not a bug: those fx decoders with mouse piano reduce the speed when track voltage goes down. The 6017 booster has a DIP switch that can be used to reduce the track voltage to create sections of slow running on the layout. Looks as if you need more feeder wires on the remote part of the layout to avoid the slow down. The newer dirt-cheap 60760 decoder no longer has the feature of slow-running sections, neither have the mfx decoders. Märklin are so consistent with their inconsistency about decoder features and such.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS

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Bill L		#12 Posted : 03 December 2023 20:25:02(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/12/2021(UTC) Posts: 86 Location: California, Sonoma County		Hi Ross: You mentioned in Post #5, that you - Added a motor to the non-motorized end unit. I have thought many times to do that. Are the 2 motors now powered by 1 or 2 decoders separately and how did you connect the wires through the passenger cars. How many wires are connected through the passenger cars? Do you still have direction change of the pick-up shoes in the front and rear. Thanks.

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Ross		#13 Posted : 03 December 2023 23:34:52(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 872 Location: Sydney, NSW		Hi Jean-Pierre/All, I'll comment in blue below Originally Posted by: cintrans Hi Ross I am using K-track with a 6021 /6035 combo The 6021 only has a 2.5A output and depending on how many locos points etc you have you may well be getting close to the power limit of the 6021 Cleaned up the motor and brushes, and although it may have improved somewhat, it is still not what i would like it to be... The LED's are the ones you buy on a roll and cut at the length you need. Per coach i have 24 LED's, a 10K resistor, a rectifier and a capacitor. I use the same setup in all my passenger cars. Switching the lights off improves things a bit, but not a whole lot.... 24 LEDs per car is way too much I only use 4 per car for the ICE2 trains. The current draw on the system increases as you increase the number of LEDs. Are you able to measure the current that one car requires? If the speed increases after you switch off the lights adding more power feeds around the track may help. See first comment also When i switch out the lok with the 402 lok (leaving the 401 end car in place) on the same consist, it drives beautiful without slowing down where the 401 slows down.... Are you familiar with the 401 "Elisabeth" (#3750)? The lok needs the end car to be connected to close the circuit so it can move. I have a feeling that this decoder set-up is the root cause of the slowing down issue.... Yes I have the Elisabeth. I would be measuring the ohms value of each coil on the armature 7-9.5 ohms is normal, if you get a high reading across one coil the armature needs to be replaced. My 402 is basically the same lok, but as it has a simple 60760 decoder it does not care about the end car. Coach lights are switched via a small relay and F1 instead of F0 Jean-Pierre
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Ross		#14 Posted : 03 December 2023 23:42:59(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 872 Location: Sydney, NSW		Hi Bill/All, Each motor has an independant LP5 decoder with the same address and each motor is speed matched. The pick-up change over isn't required in my case as I use computer control. An added bonus is I can have two light functions per car with out changing the original car connections. Originally Posted by: Bill L Hi Ross: You mentioned in Post #5, that you - Added a motor to the non-motorized end unit. I have thought many times to do that. Are the 2 motors now powered by 1 or 2 decoders separately and how did you connect the wires through the passenger cars. How many wires are connected through the passenger cars? Do you still have direction change of the pick-up shoes in the front and rear. Thanks.
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mario54i		#15 Posted : 05 December 2023 13:37:59(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 284 Location: Torino,		Also my ICE1 3770 had similar problems. Not any more.. It's like Ross' ICE, bimotor + Lokpilot + something else.

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Ross		#16 Posted : 05 December 2023 22:16:10(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 872 Location: Sydney, NSW		Hi Mario, Very nice pantograph flashing. How many cars are you running? Originally Posted by: mario54i Also my ICE1 3770 had similar problems. Not any more.. It's like Ross' ICE, bimotor + Lokpilot + something else.
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cintrans		#17 Posted : 06 December 2023 00:22:08(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 11/07/2018(UTC) Posts: 172 Location: Aruba (general), Oranjestad		Thanks for all the input all. Nice set Mario! Love the sparkling pantographs I have the ESU Ecos witch can measure current consumption, I'll hook it up to the layout over the weekend to do some measuring on the power consumption... I rather keep the "Elisabeth" original for now, but we'll see.... Regards Jean-Pierre


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PeFu		#18 Posted : 06 December 2023 06:35:08(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC) Posts: 1,210		Originally Posted by: cintrans I rather keep the "Elisabeth" original for now, but we'll see... But as Ross suggests, why not simply add more power feeders to the distant tracks, both O and B feeds?
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mario54i		#19 Posted : 06 December 2023 12:16:33(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 284 Location: Torino,		Originally Posted by: Ross How many cars are you running? Up to 12 cars, 4 first class, one restaurant, one second+service car, 6 second class. On a flat layout it runs with a dummy locomotive at the end, on a three percent slope requires a second motorized engine. In the movie it's with 11 coaches only. It was a public model railway exhibition where the modular layout of Märklinfan Club Italia was displayed. We had the usual exhibition effects, one coach failed and was removed. With a single motor it run for two days without problems You can see a report on the show here

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