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Question What are these train configurations in Zürich
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Offline PeFu  
#1 Posted : 28 August 2023 10:25:14(UTC)
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PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,210
Spent some minutes on a webcam in Zürich this morning and noticed two interesting train configurations within just a minute, both pulled by Re 4/4II engines. One side of the story is that you can really mix any cars for your layout trains, the other side of the story is the question, what kind of trains are they?

Confused

IMG_1962.jpeg

IMG_1961.jpeg


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Offline TrainIride  
#2 Posted : 28 August 2023 11:52:38(UTC)
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TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,922
Location: FRANCE
Hi,
I think these ones are "Eurocity" trains.

These trains that cross Europe from a country to another, often pass through Switzerland.

A long time ago, all these wagons from different countries had to have the same orange and white Eurocity livery, called "C1"
Then it was not applied for long.

So yes, we can mix coaches and locomotives for these trains ! Smile

Best Regards
Joël
Marklin HO - M track & C track - Analog mode - https://www.marklin-users.net/TrainIride - my channel : https://www.youtube.com/user/2mes2mains
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Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 28 August 2023 12:04:05(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,272
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TrainIride Go to Quoted Post
A long time ago, all these wagons from different countries had to have the same orange and white Eurocity livery, called "C1"
Did they?
DB didn't have many of those orange coaches.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Toosmall  
#4 Posted : 28 August 2023 13:04:06(UTC)
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Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 616
Location: Sydney
Running out of working trains!
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Offline TrainIride  
#5 Posted : 28 August 2023 13:24:30(UTC)
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TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,922
Location: FRANCE
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TrainIride Go to Quoted Post
A long time ago, all these wagons from different countries had to have the same orange and white Eurocity livery, called "C1"
Did they?
DB didn't have many of those orange coaches.



As part of the Eurofima company, the Belgian (SNCB), German (DB), Austrian (ÖBB), Swiss (SBB), Italian (FS) and French (SNCF) railways signed an agreement on 18 May 1973 aimed at the joint acquisition of standard cars intended for international traffic.

Ten prototypes were allocated to SNCF (2), FS (3) and DB (5).

The choice for production cars fell on the C1 livery (orange with a narrow pearl gray band under the windows, roof and underbody in dark gray)

Only SNCB, ÖBB, SBB and FS kept this choice.

The SNCF choosed the "Corail" livery (pearl gray with bay windows, roof and underbody in anthracite gray and doors in bright orange).

The DB finally opted for a totally different livery, namely the red/beige TEE livery.

Well, I did not know if the 5 prototypes for DB were already in the C1 livery.

Märklin reproduced SNCF, ÖBB , SNCB, SBB Eurocity cars in this C1 livery, But never for DB.

So maybe DB never had these coaches in this color.

Best Regards
Joël
Marklin HO - M track & C track - Analog mode - https://www.marklin-users.net/TrainIride - my channel : https://www.youtube.com/user/2mes2mains
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Offline marklinist5999  
#6 Posted : 28 August 2023 13:50:01(UTC)
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marklinist5999

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Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
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Location: Michigan, Troy
Ive watched that webacm too.
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Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 28 August 2023 14:32:56(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,272
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TrainIride Go to Quoted Post
So maybe DB never had these coaches in this color.
They never had AFAIK. DB never had 2nd class Eurofima coaches AFAIK.
And AFAIK SNCF only had 8 in that livery, used for trains to Belgium.

The EC net started in 1987. While Eurofima coaches were sufficient for the EC trains, they were not mandatory. And the C1 livery was never mandatory for EC trains.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline mike c  
#8 Posted : 28 August 2023 18:26:31(UTC)
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mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,904
Location: Montreal, QC
The first one is a mix of SBB Eurocity coaches and OBB Nightjet coaches. I don't recognize which particular train this is, although I suspect it may be one of the Nightjet services from Zurich to Basel that continue to Amsterdam, Berlin or Hamburg. The Amsterdam run usually includes one sleeper (ex T2S) and a single couchette (ex-CNL) (both BTEX but in NJ livery) and the SBB EC coaches. The Hamburg train usually also includes a number of DB EC coaches. The Hamburg run usually includes the well known double deck sleepers, as does the train to Vienna. The train to Berlin is usually made up of segments from different points, the one to Berlin has sections to Dresden and Prague. It may be that one or more of the sections was late and the train arrived in Zurich as a partial consist with the rest following later or being cancelled that day.
The other Nightjet runs from Zurich are the ones to Graz, which brings us to the second photo, where you can see the Croatian coaches behind the locomotive and the "Wiener Walzer" to Innsbruck, Salzburg with sections to Vienna, Budapest and Prague (not pictured). The red/gray coaches are OBB compartment and couchette coaches in the livery of the early 2000s.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline mike c  
#9 Posted : 28 August 2023 18:39:57(UTC)
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mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,904
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: TrainIride Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TrainIride Go to Quoted Post
A long time ago, all these wagons from different countries had to have the same orange and white Eurocity livery, called "C1"
Did they?
DB didn't have many of those orange coaches.



As part of the Eurofima company, the Belgian (SNCB), German (DB), Austrian (ÖBB), Swiss (SBB), Italian (FS) and French (SNCF) railways signed an agreement on 18 May 1973 aimed at the joint acquisition of standard cars intended for international traffic.

Ten prototypes were allocated to SNCF (2), FS (3) and DB (5).

The choice for production cars fell on the C1 livery (orange with a narrow pearl gray band under the windows, roof and underbody in dark gray)

Only SNCB, ÖBB, SBB and FS kept this choice.

The SNCF choosed the "Corail" livery (pearl gray with bay windows, roof and underbody in anthracite gray and doors in bright orange).

The DB finally opted for a totally different livery, namely the red/beige TEE livery.

Well, I did not know if the 5 prototypes for DB were already in the C1 livery.

Märklin reproduced SNCF, ÖBB , SNCB, SBB Eurocity cars in this C1 livery, But never for DB.

So maybe DB never had these coaches in this color.

Best Regards
Joël


When the UIC-Z (European Standard Coach) (VSE in French) order was financed by Eurofima, the Austrians (OBB), Belgians (SNCB) and Italians included second class coaches. The other countries (SBB, DB, SNCF) only ordered first class coaches. The Germans (DB) decided to order similar coaches for second class, but opted for an open seating concept (Bpmz 291). The French decided to build additional coaches on their own, which also met the UIC-Z characteristics. Austria and Switzerland commissioned new coach types (SBB Bcm couchette) based on the Eurofima design. Italy ordered their own second class coaches to supplement their Gran Comfort coaches (ex-TEE) and Belgium decided to convert a number of their second class Eurofimas to couchettes based on the Swiss Bcm.

The DB had one prototype ABvmz which was in the Eurofima livery but had a blue base color instead of the C1 orange.
OBB, SBB, SNCB and FS chose the standard C1 livery. SNCF painted a few in that colour to match with SNCB coaches for the Paris-Brussels consists.

By the 1990s, even SBB decided to commission new Z1 standard coaches for Eurocity traffic as did OBB with it's new EC coaches and many other railways (MAV, CD, HZ and others). Very few coaches remain in the C1 livery.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline mike c  
#10 Posted : 29 August 2023 05:21:36(UTC)
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mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,904
Location: Montreal, QC
Here's a nice video I found of Zurich Station with a lot of comings and goings from August 2023.


All the Nightjets can be seen in this video

Regards

Mike C
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#11 Posted : 01 September 2023 05:22:13(UTC)
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kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,670
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Simple question, sorry.
Is Eurofima UIC-Z the latest in the standard coach design in Europe?

Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline marklinist5999  
#12 Posted : 01 September 2023 12:00:13(UTC)
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marklinist5999

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Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,158
Location: Michigan, Troy
According to Wikipedia,yes. They date back to 1976. U and Z classification coaches are air conditioned.
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Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 01 September 2023 13:08:40(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,272
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
U and Z classification coaches are air conditioned.
Not all UIC-Z coaches have air condition. Not all UIC-Y coaches have air condition.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline mike c  
#14 Posted : 01 September 2023 17:41:19(UTC)
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mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,904
Location: Montreal, QC
The UIC-Z series was started with the Swiss Bm compartment coaches of 1972. The standard called for 11 compartments (2nd class) and 9 compartments (1st class). The initial delivery that was specifically labelled as UIC-Z was the Eurofima (VSE) production of 1976. UIC-Z norm originally called for new coaches to be equipped with air-conditioning. This was dropped and coaches with AC were denoted as Z1 and coaches without AC were denoted as Z2.

Subsequent coach production has largely followed the UIC-Z norms.

There have been variations. The ÖBB Modular Coaches (Bpmz), the ÖBB Railjet coaches are not strictly UIC-Z. I also am not sure if the DB Bvmz185 was fully UIC-Z compliant.

With the trend toward trainsets rather than locomotive pulled consists, the UIC-Z series may be the final individual coach series for international use.
So far, there has not been a norm for international trainsets, although the DB, SBB and OBB tried to develop a standard in the early 2000s.

Regards

Mike C
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