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Offline ixldoc  
#1 Posted : 21 January 2016 02:43:52(UTC)
ixldoc

Australia   
Joined: 18/11/2015(UTC)
Posts: 220
Location: Brisbane,Australia
HI all,
I recently completed a home made wireless controlled transfer table project and in the process I used a number of different sized LEDs in the panel on my control board. I have powered the whole project directly from my track power ( Ecos in my case) so I wanted to keep the current draw as low as possible.

Most of the LEDs were driven via a small series resistor as usual which makes for simplicity but has the drawback of flicker, worse in your peripheral vision and more so on video. So I wanted to make a small easily constructed device to stop the flicker. I have used a bridge rectifier for some years but they have been a little bulky. Recently small 800 mA SMD versions are easily available and are a lot easier to hide but a little more tricky to solder.

LED driver 5.jpg

Both these are simply mounted on their back with double sided sticky and their feet in the air.They are wired like so.
LED driver 9.jpg
The capacitor is not really needed for a normal LED but if you want to use a flashing type it will be necessary, otherwise the LED simply stays lit. Note the capacitor is mounted directly across the LED and need only be a low voltage type as the voltage drop is about 1.5-2 volts. More LEDs can be mounted in SERIES but the voltage rating of the capacitor needed is then higher as more voltage appears across the LEDs. I drove five LEDs happily. Simpler to use capacitors with 16 volt rating for all scenarios.
Another approach I felt was neater and could be constructed on the work bench then transferred to under the track or wherever is shown below.

LED driver 1.jpg

Note here the capacitor is wired across the LED and series resistor. It needs to be 16 volt rated at least. The three versions are my attempt to reduce the package to the smallest footprint. Brown and yellow wires to stud and track, red and black to LED. A single series resistor is OK even with 5 LEDS in series.A few more photos.

LED driver 3.jpg
This is all that is required for the smallest version.

LED driver 6.jpgLED driver 7.jpg
[Much neater than directly soldering to the track underside.

LED driver 8.jpg

In this case the LED is an occupancy detector and the LED return is connected to the short piece of isolated rail nearby.

This type of device is small enough for carriages, wagons, locos and under track where LEDs would be useful
Low key electronics but could be useful?
Cheers,
Howard.
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Offline Danlake  
#2 Posted : 21 January 2016 03:13:28(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,571
Hi Howard,

That's pretty neat - thanks for sharingThumpUp

Excellent photos and detailed explanation.

Brgds Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 21 January 2016 08:09:15(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,265
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Howard,
Thanks for your effort.
Originally Posted by: ixldoc Go to Quoted Post
Note here the capacitor is wired across the LED and series resistor. It needs to be 16 volt rated at least.
IMHO 16 V is on the risky side (with CU 6021 the track voltage will be around 22 V).
For digital use the capacitor should be the 25 V type to be on the safe side. For analogue use, the 35 V type will probably be enough for grey transformers, a 50 V type will be on the safe side.

It should be noted that the resistor may draw more than 0.25 W if you want to have a single, bright LED.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline ixldoc  
#4 Posted : 21 January 2016 09:00:10(UTC)
ixldoc

Australia   
Joined: 18/11/2015(UTC)
Posts: 220
Location: Brisbane,Australia
Hi Tom,
Thanks for the reply. The readings I get (with my ECOS set at 18.5 volts at the transformer) are 14.7 volts across the anode of the LED and the earth side of the resistor. This will be a very stable voltage in my opinion as all the parameters are fixed. I agree 25 volt rated capacitors would have a bigger safety margin and if size is not important then that would be the way to go.
With the 2.2K series resistor the current flow is around 6 mA and therefore the total power the resistor has to sustain is in the order of 60-70 mWatt as it is dropping about 10 volts.. The one I have used and shown is in fact a 1/8 watt type and doesn't even become warm.
I think with all these circuits it pays to experiment on the bench first before settling on any fixed values.
The circuit was never intended for analogue use. A whole new set of rules apply then.
Again thanks for the input.
Cheers.
Howard.
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Offline ixldoc  
#5 Posted : 21 January 2016 09:55:14(UTC)
ixldoc

Australia   
Joined: 18/11/2015(UTC)
Posts: 220
Location: Brisbane,Australia
Aaahhh it's me again!
I have reviewed this post and the very valid comments made and it is apparent to me that I made an omission in the first posting which was not to state the circuits were designed around my setup of Ecos set at 18.8 volts. I forgot that other users could have their supply set higher and I don't know what the Marklin CS actually puts out.
This being the case please take note of the above discussion and Tom's valid comment on 25 Volt rated capacitors.
I also meant to mention that five LEDs in series will drop 10 or so volts which means the resistor only has to drop a much lower voltage and consequently will not get hot ( checked on the bench).
I reiterate the design was for "digital track power" and not for analogue as voltages are quite different.
Thank you and I hope this makes things a little clearer.
Howard.
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Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 21 January 2016 20:47:37(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,265
Location: DE-NW
From a Märklin CS running on 16 V AC I would expect a track voltage of 20+ V - around 22 V when the controller is idle.
With 19 V DC I would expect around 18 V from a CS2/CS3.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline DaleSchultz  
#7 Posted : 24 January 2016 21:21:27(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
I would do one of these:

a) Power the LEDs with a separate DC power supply so that you are NOT using valuable digital current. (Unless you do not expect to expand consumption from the track and you have plenty)

b) install one bridge rectifier (or 4 Diodes) (and possible a smoothing capacitor) and use that to drive all the LEDs on the panel, each 'set' with their own resistor sized accordingly. If there is one one rectifier/smoothing circuit, it can be positioned away from the tight confines of the panel and just bring the DC power in with a wire.


Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline ixldoc  
#8 Posted : 24 January 2016 23:26:09(UTC)
ixldoc

Australia   
Joined: 18/11/2015(UTC)
Posts: 220
Location: Brisbane,Australia
Hi Dale and thanks for the interest.
My post really was about how to use LEDs from track power. Where you have the chance to use a DC power supply then that is the way to go. I have a 12 volt DC bus running under my table and this can be tapped anywhere for accessories as required.
I finished the transfer project I mentioned and installed all the LEDs and it was designed from day one to use track power to allow one power source yet provide power to the bridge of the turntable for the locos.
On the control panel of my layout I made a repeater panel with more LEDs as an indication of what was occurring on the transfer table. I do not use that panel to control the table as it works with wireless remote control. The LEDs are therefore in parallel with the transfer table LEDs and are running on track power.
It was only when I came to video the table and control panel I realised the flicker was very evident and that got me to thinking about reducing or eliminating it. Hence the post above.
Transfer table.jpg
Overall view of the transfer table.
DSCN0440.jpg
The repeater panel. Left side, switch, small blue ON light above the switch, large green all systems go, 3 large red lights for track selected,4 white yard lights, blue bridge position light, small red occupancy detector lights.
DSCN0378.jpg
These wires are all just parallel to the LEDs on the table.

The whole lot draws 320mA with all LEDs on, three trains on the tracks and the bridge moving. About the equivalent of a couple of locos running.
One benefit of a small circuit built under the track is that the piece of track can be simply removed , worked on and replaced. No wires to drop through the table. This works well on a friend's layout which is displayed at shows. The last thing you want at a show is to have to get under a table to get at wires.
Regards,
Howard.

Offline DaleSchultz  
#9 Posted : 28 January 2016 20:29:28(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
ah, I now have a better understanding of what you are doing. Sounds good. I like the fire extinguisher installation next to the turntable...

BTW in one of your wiring diagrams you show two 1N4148 diodes. Why two ???

BTW2, I used to use a 0,7V voltage drop for diodes in my calculations.
The other day I measured the voltage drop and the batch of 1N4048 diodes that I have, and they only drop 0.56V
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline ixldoc  
#10 Posted : 29 January 2016 01:40:53(UTC)
ixldoc

Australia   
Joined: 18/11/2015(UTC)
Posts: 220
Location: Brisbane,Australia
Hello Dale,
Re that diode; electronics is my interest not my training therefore what I do is based on bench work not theory. Don't you just love amateurs?

Number 1 reason for the first diode before the LED (which of course functions as a diode) was that I wanted to lower the DC voltage that the LED and resistor would drop, in an attempt to keep the voltage rating of the capacitor to 16 volts ( for size alone). On my set up with Ecos I could get the voltage to around 14.7 DC and I was happier at that.

Number 2 reason was maybe more illogical and if Tom reads this I would be grateful for his input. On the CRO without the first diode, the reverse part of the track voltage was applied across the + side of the electrolytic. ( I tend to think of track voltage as square wave AC for simplicity. Not valid for voltage calculation as you may have read.)
I was simply unsure if this was an acceptable state so I opted for the diode. The circuit works without the diode and a flashing LED will still work.

Tom (HO) are you out there? I need some help here!.
Regards,
Howard.
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Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 29 January 2016 08:50:23(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,265
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: ixldoc Go to Quoted Post
Tom (HO) are you out there? I need some help here!.
Little do I know. I think one diode will be enough in that case. The second diode reduces the voltage a bit further.

The voltage drop of a diode grows with the current. A bridge rectifier with just a digital multimeter attached will have a small voltage drop. With a light bulb attached, the voltage drop should be close to 1.4 V.

So 0.7 V per diode is a good approximation if motors or light bulbs are involved. I don't know what the voltage drop will be if an LED only just draws 1 or 2 mA.
Three white LEDs in series with 30 kOhm are still bright enough for loco headlights, the efficiency is astounding. Same for modern LEDs in red.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#12 Posted : 29 January 2016 21:09:58(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
sounds all good. I did put 10 diodes in series once to drop from 12V to 5V after I decided to use 12V as a standard under my layout, and did not want to open up my signal box to change resistors!

The measurement I got was using the diode mode on my very fancy FLIR multimeter, so probably without any load. Next time I have a circuit running with 20-25 mA I will measure the actual drop.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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