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Offline IsItDigitalAlready?  
#1 Posted : 08 August 2015 00:20:36(UTC)
IsItDigitalAlready?

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: Nevada, Reno
I set out to build a toy 4x8 layout that, hopefully, the grandkids can run when they visit - and which has some operating complexity to amuse me and some of the other retirees in the neighborhood. I used M-Track, enhancing the connectivity of the rail connectors and watching the conductivity of the center contact - there were a few very bad ones, which I discarded.

I am using the LokPilot v4.0 multi-protocol straight out of the box on a Marklin 103 loco, converted with a Marklin 5-pole DC drum-commutator motor kit. For my peace of mind in testing, I set the max speed to 127 (does not affect reported results - they are the same with the default of 255 [N.B.: ESU manual says default is 64]).

What happens? Loco speed is "jumpy" - that's the only word I can use to describe it - on the level track circuit (16 straight track and 12 large radius curves) . If I select a very slow speed (speed step 10, for instance) it seems to accellerate to that speed within on second (or so) and run at a constant speed. If I select SS 127 from a stop (time=0), it accelerates a little quicker than I would like, then the speed increases in 3 or 4 jumps (time~4 seconds), continues at that speed, then slows to about half at about T=8 seconds, then accelerates slowly for another 20 seconds until it is at top speed - at which it runs very smoothly until I stop it. It is almost like the Z21 controller and the LokPilot are fighting each other.

As for track quality, and electrical connectivity, I can run this loco at SS1 (7 minutes per 5,628mm circuit) very smoothly with no stalls. Also, the loco runs over the track without making any of those sparks I loved as a kid on the old AC system, so I think the track is good.

I have tried adjusting the LokPilot load compensation CVs as suggested in the ESU manual, but no joy there.

I would be grateful for any suggestions you might have.

Cheers,
f3

Edited by user 08 August 2015 16:35:58(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Bob
Cold Springs (Reno), in far Western Nevada
It's all Gordon's fault!
Offline Shamu  
#2 Posted : 08 August 2015 02:28:49(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
Joined: 12/07/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
Hi Bob,

Sorry if you have done it but did you change the CV's (ESU V4 EN Manual) shown on page 46 figure 25 for the most common motors ?

Also did you try the automatic calibration on page 47 ?

Best of luck with it, sorry I have no further useful comments.
Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Shamu
H0
Online H0  
#3 Posted : 08 August 2015 08:58:03(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,250
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: IsItDigitalAlready? Go to Quoted Post
I am using the LokPilot v4.0 multi-protocol straight out of the box on a Marklin 103 loco, converted with a Marklin 5-pole DC drum-commutator motor kit. For my peace of mind in testing, I set the max speed to 127 (does not affect reported results - they are the same with the default of 255 [N.B.: ESU manual says default is 64]).
According to ESU V4 manual the default value for CV 5 is 255 which also is the maximum value.
Did you set CV 5 or what does "max speed" refer to?
If changing the "max speed" has no effect then maybe there is a PEBKAC and changes are not written to the decoder. Which controller are you using?

The ESU decoders are not preset for Märklin motors. Like Shamu I recommend to set CVs 51 through 56 as recommended in the latest version of the manual (download from the ESU site).

What does "LokPilot v4.0 multi-protocol" mean: with or without M4?
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline jvuye  
#4 Posted : 08 August 2015 15:21:59(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
One think I'd check before anything else is the value of CV 6, the one defining mid-range speed.
It should be about halfway between min an max as an initial setting.
If it is equal or larger than the max speed you selected (I.e.127...) the decoder can no longer interpolate.
Later you can fine tune for linearity.
To adjust load compensation I'd follow Tom and Shamu's suggestions.
Also, did you test the converted motor with DC only ? ( decoder disconnected from the motor of course...!!)
If the motor is not smooth under DC, it won't get better with the decoder !!Wink
Hope this helps.
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
Offline IsItDigitalAlready?  
#5 Posted : 08 August 2015 16:41:55(UTC)
IsItDigitalAlready?

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: Nevada, Reno
Originally Posted by: Shamu Go to Quoted Post
Hi Bob,

Sorry if you have done it but did you change the CV's (ESU V4 EN Manual) shown on page 46 figure 25 for the most common motors ?

Also did you try the automatic calibration on page 47 ?

Best of luck with it, sorry I have no further useful comments.


Yes, after the inititial unmodified test, I did use the CVs on p 46, for the Marklin DCM, with little change in behavior. I have tried the auto-cal procedure (para 11.1.3) but was not impressed with the result. However, I will have to go back and try it again, as another correspondent reminded me that this procedure has to be run on the main track, not the programming track...

Thanks,
IsItDigitalAlready?
Bob
Cold Springs (Reno), in far Western Nevada
It's all Gordon's fault!
Offline IsItDigitalAlready?  
#6 Posted : 08 August 2015 16:53:32(UTC)
IsItDigitalAlready?

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: Nevada, Reno
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
Originally Posted by: IsItDigitalAlready? Go to Quoted Post
I am using the LokPilot v4.0 multi-protocol straight out of the box on a Marklin 103 loco, converted with a Marklin 5-pole DC drum-commutator motor kit. For my peace of mind in testing, I set the max speed to 127 (does not affect reported results - they are the same with the default of 255 [N.B.: ESU manual says default is 64]).
According to ESU V4 manual the default value for CV 5 is 255 which also is the maximum value.
Did you set CV 5 or what does "max speed" refer to?
If changing the "max speed" has no effect then maybe there is a PEBKAC and changes are not written to the decoder. Which controller are you using?

The ESU decoders are not preset for Märklin motors. Like Shamu I recommend to set CVs 51 through 56 as recommended in the latest version of the manual (download from the ESU site).

What does "LokPilot v4.0 multi-protocol" mean: with or without M4?


Thanks.

You are correct, I set the Max Speed - CV 5 - to 127.

I am using a Roco Z21, purchased in May this year. [I can't believe I forgot to mention that!] I generally confirm that values were written to the decoder by doing a readback.

PEBCAK? LOL!

I did write the CVs 51-56 as suggested using the values in the manual.

Finally, the decoder I am using is the one that implements M4, DCC, Railcom, AC or DC analog - in short, everything. It is the one designated "LokPilot V4.0" without further qualification thruout the ESU manual.

Thanks
IsItDigitalAlready?
Bob
Cold Springs (Reno), in far Western Nevada
It's all Gordon's fault!
Offline IsItDigitalAlready?  
#7 Posted : 08 August 2015 16:58:17(UTC)
IsItDigitalAlready?

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: Nevada, Reno
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
One think I'd check before anything else is the value of CV 6, the one defining mid-range speed.
It should be about halfway between min an max as an initial setting.
If it is equal or larger than the max speed you selected (I.e.127...) the decoder can no longer interpolate.
Later you can fine tune for linearity.
To adjust load compensation I'd follow Tom and Shamu's suggestions.
Also, did you test the converted motor with DC only ? ( decoder disconnected from the motor of course...!!)
If the motor is not smooth under DC, it won't get better with the decoder !!Wink
Hope this helps.


Good point about CV 6, but I left it at the default of 88 - will fine tune it when the major probs are solved.

Did not test DC only as I have no power pack - remember I am coming from a Marklin AC past (and it is long past - the last time I set up a Marklin layout was in the early '90s). However, I am confident that the loco is not the problem.

Thanks,
IsItDigitalAlready?
Bob
Cold Springs (Reno), in far Western Nevada
It's all Gordon's fault!
Online H0  
#8 Posted : 08 August 2015 20:17:16(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,250
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: IsItDigitalAlready? Go to Quoted Post
It is the one designated "LokPilot V4.0" without further qualification thruout the ESU manual.
The decoder you have is called "LokPilot V4.0 M4" throughout the manual. It ignores the value of CV 6 (see 10.2). You have to change CVs 67 through 94 to change the speed curve.

The decoder called "LokPilot V4.0" does not support M4 (mfx), but it supports CV 6 (depending on the value in CV 29).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline IsItDigitalAlready?  
#9 Posted : 08 August 2015 20:36:59(UTC)
IsItDigitalAlready?

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: Nevada, Reno
UPDATE:

I corrected my procedure for automatic calibration (I had probably run it on the programming track with no discernable change) per para 11.1.3 of the ESU manual (my version is from February 2013), and here is what happened. But first, here are the CV 51-55 values:
  • Recommended: 0, 23, 120, 60, 95 (Figure 25, page 46, Marklin 5-pole motor)
  • Result of Auto Calibration: 0, 12, 18, 40, 12
Anyway, results are unsatisfactory. The engine growls along slowly with small jerks, and never accelerates to a reasonable speed. I would say it is runing at speed step 20 or so. The growling noise may be a useful symptom, although I have no clue...

Next steps include turning load compensation off completely (again), and experimenting with the load comp parameters. I intend to make certain there are no other variables by using all defaults, except max speed (CV5) = 128 (half of default), medium speed (CV6) = 44 (also half), brake and RailCom (CV27-CV28) = 0, config register (CV29) = 2, CV49-50 = 0, and CV51-56 per different table entries (when load comp is not disabled).

Ideas are always welcome...
Bob
Cold Springs (Reno), in far Western Nevada
It's all Gordon's fault!
Offline IsItDigitalAlready?  
#10 Posted : 08 August 2015 20:50:26(UTC)
IsItDigitalAlready?

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: Nevada, Reno
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: IsItDigitalAlready? Go to Quoted Post
It is the one designated "LokPilot V4.0" without further qualification thruout the ESU manual.
The decoder you have is called "LokPilot V4.0 M4" throughout the manual. It ignores the value of CV 6 (see 10.2). You have to change CVs 67 through 94 to change the speed curve.

The decoder called "LokPilot V4.0" does not support M4 (mfx), but it supports CV 6 (depending on the value in CV 29).


Well, I do have the M4 version (it is wonky too) but I am running these tests on the plain vanilla version that says it supports all protocols: Item #54610, "LokPilot V4.0 Multiprotocol MM/DCC/SX". And, I am aware of the CV6 dependency on CV29 and the type of decoder. Once I get the speed under control, I may use my LokPilot M4 with speed curve values (and load comp values) in this loco.

There is no Marklin-specific equipment in the electric control of the loco. The motor is DC (okay, I used a Marklin conversion kit), the decoder is ESU, the controller is Roco Z21.

Thanks for emphasizing these points.
Bob
Cold Springs (Reno), in far Western Nevada
It's all Gordon's fault!
Offline kiwiAlan  
#11 Posted : 08 August 2015 22:33:53(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,067
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: IsItDigitalAlready? Go to Quoted Post
Finally, the decoder I am using is the one that implements M4, DCC, Railcom, AC or DC analog - in short, everything. It is the one designated "LokPilot V4.0" without further qualification thruout the ESU manual.

Thanks
IsItDigitalAlready?


Umm, the one you have is actually designated "Lokpilot V4.0 M4" but anything in the manual applies to both models. If I remember correctly there is a section that applies only to the M4 features for this decoder.

I don't know why you have purchased an M4 decoder if you are going to use a z21 controller as that controller cannot send marklin format data on the track, so you will be using the decoder in DCC mode. You may find that it also works better if you turn off the M4 capability using the appropriate CV.

Also when programming CVs you may find that using a free program like JMRI makes life a lot easier. Unfortunately the implementation of the interface for the z21 controller is not yet complete, but it is being worked on.

If you can get to the point where you can use JMRI, then you will find it a lot easier to program your decoders as all the CVs have human comprehensible names and the bits in each CV (where applicable) are split out into separate fields. Things like the speed table and min/mid/max CVs mentioned above are arranged so that when programmed through JMRI it is not possible to get to the point with the problem you originally mentioned.

Offline IsItDigitalAlready?  
#12 Posted : 12 August 2015 20:26:41(UTC)
IsItDigitalAlready?

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: Nevada, Reno
I just want you to know that I have been busy (on other things, too) trying to figure out what is happening. After more fruitless testing, adjusting the load comp values, I decided I needed a different loco to test. So I dusted off a fairly "new" BR 120 which I had prepared for digital conversion but had not installed the plug/harness yet. I removed, cleaned, lubed, and re-installed the drive train, and added the plug/harness. It ran like a champ! With the default load comp settings!!

So I am in the process of doing the same for the 103 (a 3-axle loco, vs 2-axle for the 120) and I will let you all know how it goes.

Cheers,
f3
Bob
Cold Springs (Reno), in far Western Nevada
It's all Gordon's fault!
Offline jvuye  
#13 Posted : 12 August 2015 21:31:57(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: IsItDigitalAlready? Go to Quoted Post
I just want you to know that I have been busy (on other things, too) trying to figure out what is happening. After more fruitless testing, adjusting the load comp values, I decided I needed a different loco to test. So I dusted off a fairly "new" BR 120 which I had prepared for digital conversion but had not installed the plug/harness yet. I removed, cleaned, lubed, and re-installed the drive train, and added the plug/harness. It ran like a champ! With the default load comp settings!!

So I am in the process of doing the same for the 103 (a 3-axle loco, vs 2-axle for the 120) and I will let you all know how it goes.

Cheers,
f3


So, now if you do the same with the 103, would you let us know what changes?
As we said here before, if the loco doesn't run smoothly in analog after the mechanical/electrical conversion it certainly won't run better (if at all!) with a decoder!Wink Wink
It only takes two minutes to test, but it saves hours in frustration and unnecessary fiddling.Smile Wink
Glad you found the keyThumpUp
Cheers
Jacques
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
Offline IsItDigitalAlready?  
#14 Posted : 13 August 2015 06:12:56(UTC)
IsItDigitalAlready?

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: Nevada, Reno
Further testing on the 103:

After thorough clean/lube of drive train it still runs badly, even thought the gears seem to turn very easily. Once I assemble the motor to the power truck it is hard to turn the wheels - much MUCH harder than the 120. In my mind it is either (a) the armature is binding on the stator, or (b) the armature drive gear is binding on the drive train spur gear, or (c) something else?

So let me give all the particulars of what I am dealing with and see if anyone has an idea about the cause of the problem.

The loco is a stock Marklin 3357 with a Marklin 60760 High-Efficiency (5-pole motor) kit installed. I removed all the wiring and added an ESU 51950 wire harness with an 8-pin NEM 652 plug (thank goodness!). With the motor installed, it is hard to move the gear-train by turning the drive wheels. Using either the ESU 54610 LokPilot V4.0 multi-protocol decoder or the 64610 LokPilot V4.0 M4 decoder it runs terribly.

I can see now that I will need a DC power pack for testing the remaining locos I have for conversion after installing the motor conversions!

I just compared the gears on the old and new armatures and they have the same diameter, 3.7mm (on my old vernier caliper). But the armature shaft is very tight in the end plate (the one that carries the brushes). If that is the problem, I may be able to swap (armature and/or end plate) with another lok to see if that cures the problem. If that is the problem, I don't think it can be cured by lubrication, and I may have to try to get Marklin involved...

Stay tooned...
f3
Bob
Cold Springs (Reno), in far Western Nevada
It's all Gordon's fault!
Offline IsItDigitalAlready?  
#15 Posted : 13 August 2015 06:45:26(UTC)
IsItDigitalAlready?

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: Nevada, Reno
One other thing - while operating the BR 120 with the default load comp CV values was fine, the auto calibration procedure improved operation noticably. It is markedly smoother, quieter ... just better behaved. This is what I had in mind when I decided to go digital!

I need to change my screen name to ItISDigitalAlready!
Bob
Cold Springs (Reno), in far Western Nevada
It's all Gordon's fault!
Offline jvuye  
#16 Posted : 15 August 2015 23:01:10(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: IsItDigitalAlready? Go to Quoted Post
One other thing - while operating the BR 120 with the default load comp CV values was fine, the auto calibration procedure improved operation noticably. It is markedly smoother, quieter ... just better behaved. This is what I had in mind when I decided to go digital!

I need to change my screen name to ItISDigitalAlready!


If you feel it's "tight" with the brush plate bearing, all you need to try is some very **careful** reaming of the hole, until it run smoothly, but without excessive play.
Also in some cases the rotor is just rubbing against the stator (the space between rotor and stator is **really tight** to ensure a strong magnetic flux), and sometimes you need to adjust the position of the poles relative to the motor housing.
If you need inputs on how to do that, let us know.
We'll get it to run perfectly...eventually! BigGrin
Cheers
jacques
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
Offline pietercc  
#17 Posted : 27 August 2015 04:39:19(UTC)
pietercc

United States   
Joined: 27/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 15
Location: California, Sacramento
If you have a lokprogramer you could set CV 54 to 0 then go to the tester and press function one. This will calibrate the motor to the proper settings. But be careful, the locomotive will shoot of at full speed for about 3 feet
Offline kiwiAlan  
#18 Posted : 27 August 2015 11:49:01(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,067
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: pietercc Go to Quoted Post
If you have a lokprogramer you could set CV 54 to 0 then go to the tester and press function one. This will calibrate the motor to the proper settings. But be careful, the locomotive will shoot of at full speed for about 3 feet


You don't need a lokprogrammer to do this, you can do it from any device that can set the Cvs.

Offline IsItDigitalAlready?  
#19 Posted : 31 August 2015 01:09:24(UTC)
IsItDigitalAlready?

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: Nevada, Reno
Thanks to all.

Final Diagnosis: tight bearing on motor (new) end plate. Coulda been a fat armature shaft, but the seller replaced the end plate, and it runs like a charm.

Interesting fact: It runs best using default settings in the LokPilot v4.0 multiprotocol decoder. I ran the auto calibrate procedure twice, and in each case resulted in poorer performance. I'm just sayin'...

This one is RESOLVED!
Bob
Cold Springs (Reno), in far Western Nevada
It's all Gordon's fault!
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