Is there any benefits using 5-pole armature instead of 3-pole with Delta or...

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Is there any benefits using 5-pole armature instead of 3-pole with Delta or 6080 decoders?

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Janne75		#1 Posted : 01 May 2013 16:19:15(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC) Posts: 2,550 Location: Finland		Hello all, I just wonder that is there any benefits to use a 5-pole motor armature only instead of a 3-pole armature if not using permanent magnet? Like with Märklin Delta or 6080 Digital decoders or even analog locos? Is Märklin 35XX-series locos just these analog locos with 5-pole armatures? Should these run better and smoother than the 3-pole armature ones if everything else is kept unmodified? I have a Märklin Delta 33183 loco (blue Bayern S 3/6 steamer) that was a bit "verharzt". I opened it's motor and cleaned gears etc. and put it back together. It ran, but it still ran a bit noisy. So I decided to re-open the motor and give it a try with a 5-pole armature instead of the original 3-pole one. I also lubricated it a bit more at the same time. Now it runs smoother and more quiet. Or I think it does as I know now that it has that 5-pole armature inside of it's motor . This loco is quite rare and I think that I will keep it as Delta, but this small modification seems to have some positive effect to it's running quality/smoothness even with Delta decoder. I don't want to convert it to Digital as it is not then anymore 33183. 37183 is that Digital version of this loco. I have also an spare permanent magnet, but it can not be used with Delta decoder, if I have understood right? Has anyone else "modified" their locos motors like this changing only 3-pole armatures to 5-pole armatures? If yes did you get also better running charasteristics? Or am I only dreaming and better to save those 5-pole armatures to Digital conversions with permanent magnets and Digital decoders? Cheers, Janne
		Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.

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sikardon		#2 Posted : 01 May 2013 16:34:09(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 05/06/2012(UTC) Posts: 171		Originally Posted by: Janne75 Hello all, I just wonder that is there any benefits to use a 5-pole motor armature only instead of a 3-pole armature if not using permanent magnet? Like with Märklin Delta or 6080 Digital decoders or even analog locos? Is Märklin 35XX-series locos just these analog locos with 5-pole armatures? Should these run better and smoother than the 3-pole armature ones if everything else is kept unmodified? I have a Märklin Delta 33183 loco (blue Bayern S 3/6 steamer) that was a bit "verharzt". I diismantled it's motor and cleaned gears etc. and put it back together. It ran, but it still ran a bit noisy. So I decided to re-open the motor and give it a try with a 5-pole armature instead of the original 3-pole one. I also lubricated it a bit more at the same time. Now it runs smoother and more quiet. Or I think it does as I know now that it has that 5-pole armature inside of it's motor . This loco is quite rare and I think that I will keep it as Delta, but this small modification seems to have some positive effect to it's running charasteristics even with Delta decoder. I don't want to convert it to Digital as it is not then anymore 33183. 37183 is that Digital version of this loco. I have also an spare permanent magnet, but it can not be used with Delta decoder, if I have understood right? Have anyone else "modified" their locos motors like this changing only 3-pole armatures to 5-pole armatures? If yes did you get also better running charasteristics? Or am I only dreaming and better to save those 5-pole armatures to Digital conversions with permanent magnets and Digital decoders? Cheers, Janne Hi Janne, I have 33183, and some months ago I change the motor with Marklin 60760 kit but with Mfx digital decoder Marklin 60965. Unfortunately, the decoder was malfunction some weeks ago. Here is the topic link https://www.marklin-user...D-into-S-3-6--33183.aspx IMO, it runs better. But I change the decoder, and you are not. Don't know if it really matters. Cheers, Sony


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Janne75		#3 Posted : 01 May 2013 17:00:38(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC) Posts: 2,550 Location: Finland		Hi Sony, Yes you converted your 33183 then to full Digital. I just wanted to know what effect this motor armature changing from 3-pole to 5-pole one has with these older not as smooth decoders (Delta and 6080 Digital). Was your 33183 also jamming "verharzt" before you started to convert it to Digital? When you had your motor open was the gears and wheels rotating smooth and freely? If not, then that may be the cause for your new mFX decoder malfunction as loco draws more current when gears are jamming. Could it put overload protection on as your decoder is from Märklin's newer generation with overload protection? I have not read your topic yet, so I am only assuming... I will look your topic now. These 33183/37183 are looking awesome! Cheers, Janne
		Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.


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sikardon		#4 Posted : 01 May 2013 17:20:54(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 05/06/2012(UTC) Posts: 171		Originally Posted by: Janne75 Hi Sony, Yes you converted your 33183 then to full Digital. I just wanted to know what effect this motor armature changing from 3-pole to 5-pole one has with these older not as smooth decoders (Delta and 6080 Digital). Was your 33183 also jamming "verharzt" before you started to convert it to Digital? When you had your motor open was the gears and wheels rotating smooth and freely? If not, then that may be the cause for your new mFX decoder malfunction as loco draws more current when gears are jamming. Could it put overload protection on as your decoder is from Märklin's newer generation with overload protection? I have not read your topic yet, so I am only assuming... I will look your topic now. These 33183/37183 are looking awesome! Cheers, Janne Hi Janne, Yes, it is verharzt, the gears have gummy liquid, I clean it with Marklin 7149 and towel, and after that, I can move the wheels and gears smoothly, then I install decoders. I think the decoder was short circuited, and blown because the decoder or part of the decoder cable or something I don't know, touches the metal body of the loco. Before the decoder died, the speaker emit strange sound, like a "short circuit" sound I think . Well, sorry, it is OOT now . Cheers, Sony


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arconell		#5 Posted : 02 May 2013 00:59:22(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/07/2010(UTC) Posts: 174 Location: Kreis Kleve, Germany		Hi Janne, As you have seen but most likely heard more than seen in your 33183, there are small differences when going from a 3-pole to a 5-pole armature. There is a small difference in smoothness at low speed if you put in a full digital decoder for field coil motors like Mä 6080 or the Uhlenbrock Andi. That difference is even less with a Delta decoder. It also sounds a bit better, almost like having a 6 cylinder instead of a 4 cylinder engine in your car. But be careful, there were a number of different 3 pole armatures, in that the number of windings and therefore their magnetic fields differed, resulting in differences in power. Changing to 5 pole when the original 3 pole is one of the more powerful types may reduce the engine (pulling) power of your loco quite noticeably in which case you would either have to convert it back or go all the way with permanent magnet conversion and load controlled decoder. Robert

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Janne75		#6 Posted : 02 May 2013 09:21:36(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC) Posts: 2,550 Location: Finland		Thanks Robert from your very good answer. That example going from 3-pole to 5-pole is like going from inline 4 cylinder motor to inline 6 cylinder motor is a good example. If only that Delta decoder would have more speed steps and smoother motor control it would be perfect then. Also my Ford Mondeo with it's inline 4 is not as smooth as my BMW M5 with it's inline 6 motor. With car motors an inline 4 fires every 90 degree crankshaft rotation and inline 6 every 60 degrees. This explains much smoother running. So has these 3-pole and 5-pole basically the same thing. 3-pole variant every 120 degree (360:3) and 5-pole variant every 72 degree (360:5)? This difference is like a car motors cylinder firing interwalls and locos running behaviour is controlled by decoder = engine management system in a car motor. It is then like having a 6-cylinder motor with bad or unmapped engine management system now in my 33183 . Much potential to get it better, but no other way than using permanent magnet and more sophisticated decoder. What kind of motor etc. those Märklin 35XX locos has? Some had Faulhaber motors but I mean the "normal" motors. I know that there is 5-pole armature, but is it the only difference to normal 3-pole analog locos? If yes, then this armature change should be a good modification as Märklin has also done models like this. Should I call this 33183 after this modification 35183 then? Cheers, Janne
		Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.


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