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Offline cookee_nz  
#1 Posted : 25 October 2011 14:43:03(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,955
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Hi all,

This one has me stumped and I cannot find the question previously posted, but it's a tricky one to search for.

On my test bed I have a K83, a normal solenoid signal, a contact track and an S88.

The contact track is directly wired to the signal so that as the train passes, the pickup shoe contacts the flipper and operates the signal.

What I want to do if possible is ALSO monitor the SAME feedback into my S88 without having to disconnect every time I wish to switch between Analogue and Digital. I've already had one suggestion that I could use a relay to isolate the digital connection and this would work but there are 8 contacts involved and I'm wondering if there is a better way?

If I connect the S88 input only to an output (green or red) of the K83, the S88 shows it as active. I would expect this and I can eliminate that with a Diode.

But if I connect the S88 input to either of the solenoid blue leads I also get the input active because it is detecting feedback through the solenoid coil. A diode does not eliminate this.

Has anyone encountered tried to connect in this way and found a solution?

Thanks

Steve
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline teddych  
#2 Posted : 28 October 2011 16:15:45(UTC)
teddych


Joined: 28/10/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4
Location: Birmensdorf, Switzerland
What exactly do you want to detect? If a train is on the track, or if the signal is red or green?

Teddy
_________________
Diodentrick, auch für S88 mit Optokoppler
Offline cookee_nz  
#3 Posted : 28 October 2011 22:59:49(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,955
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: teddych Go to Quoted Post
What exactly do you want to detect? If a train is on the track, or if the signal is red or green?

Teddy
_________________
Diodentrick, auch für S88 mit Optokoppler


Hi Teddy,

Neither, I want to monitor the contact track.

It is an analogue layout and will stay that way - I want to ADD digital monitoring of the 8 contact tracks for feedback to a PC.

The layout has to be able to operate in either Analogue or Digital mode (but not both at the same time).

I have a switch to isolate the K83 units from the analogue signal but no easy way to disconnect 16 (or more) S88 connections.

Cheers

Steve
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline cookee_nz  
#4 Posted : 28 October 2011 23:02:41(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,955
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: teddych Go to Quoted Post
What exactly do you want to detect? If a train is on the track, or if the signal is red or green?

Teddy
_________________
Diodentrick, auch für S88 mit Optokoppler


This thread perhaps explains it better, easier to paste it here than to retype it all BigGrin

http://groups.yahoo.com/...rklinBandG/message/67751

Do this make it more clear??

Cheers again

Steve
Melbourne
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline steventrain  
#5 Posted : 29 October 2011 21:57:31(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,610
Location: United Kingdom
Hi Terry,

Welcome to the forum.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline teddych  
#6 Posted : 30 October 2011 06:36:07(UTC)
teddych


Joined: 28/10/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4
Location: Birmensdorf, Switzerland
Hi Steve

I do not have access to yahoo.

But I hope this helps:

[Image removed because of errors.]

Teddy
__________________________
Kontaktgleis im Selbstbau

Edited by user 25 November 2011 15:24:22(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline DaleSchultz  
#7 Posted : 25 November 2011 03:18:52(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
I would not do this. I am not sure the s88 would tolerate the 16V AC coming from the Trafo through the signal solenoid coil. If using digital, feed the s88 to some controller and let the controller actuate the k83 which actuates the signal.

Mixing 16v AC with the s88 will probably do some unwanted things.
Mixing digital and analog control, leaves confusion as to who or what is in control.

Edited by user 25 November 2011 22:20:41(UTC)  | Reason: fixed typo

Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline xxup  
#8 Posted : 25 November 2011 03:30:01(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,477
Location: Australia
What Dale has said makes sense - current finds the path of least resistance.. Would a diode (or a bridge rectifier) help here? Confused
Adrian
UserPostedImage
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Offline teddych  
#9 Posted : 25 November 2011 15:22:39(UTC)
teddych


Joined: 28/10/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4
Location: Birmensdorf, Switzerland
Dale and Adrian, you are right.
The 4044 that is used only allows input between 0V and 5V. I missed that point.

Teddy
_________________
LED an Wechselstrom
Offline cookee_nz  
#10 Posted : 25 November 2011 21:34:57(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,955
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: teddych Go to Quoted Post
Dale and Adrian, you are right.
The 4044 that is used only allows input between 0V and 5V. I missed that point.

Teddy
_________________
LED an Wechselstrom


Hi guys, was surprised to see this thread suddenly come alive again but I appreciate the input (no pun intended) BigGrin

What you are adding to the thread is largely correct, but don't overlook that I always said that the S88 will only be used (active) when the layout is in full Digital mode.

When the layout is under analogue control the S88 will be passive - ie not connected to the I.B. (or 6050 if I choose to use that).

The single thing I was hoping to achieve was to avoid having to disconnect the S88 completely and whether anyone had also faced this and found an imaginative solution.

I've been surprised at how robust the S88 actually is, and don't forget that even in pure 'digital' mode, the S88 input still can receive full track voltage as an input - ie indexing for the digital turntable or the circuit & contact tracks - you can safely feed the center rail directly to an S88 input and use that to trigger events. I'd probably tend to avoid sending an analogue reverse pulse direct into the S88 but the normal operation of the layout would not cause this.

I've pondered different options for this and have had quite a few suggestions on and off list on ways it could be achieved but some of the possible solutions require more components and circuitry that take it beyond a 'simple' solution. Once I get beyond two or three components (diodes, zeners etc) it rather defeats the purpose and really, it would be easier just to wire all the S88 inputs through a 16 pin plug & socket and just disconnect that when using full analogue.

Thanks again for thinking about it, you never know someone might get a flash of inspiration one day and stumble on something no one else has thought of.

And I also accept my need is a little unusual, most people either run analogue, or they make the move to digital, perhaps even a mix where there is very clear separation. Because this is a display layout, there may be times I'd like to run it analogue completely unattended as originally wired hence the need to be able to easily and quickly slect one or the other.

Cheers

Cookee
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline DaleSchultz  
#11 Posted : 25 November 2011 22:25:52(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
yes what you say is true... the s88 may be able to handle it, but I am not sure that that the track current it would encounter from a turntable running digital current would be easier to handle than raw sine wave 16V AC. The digital signal is (I think choppier) and less of a sine wave. They may however have assumed that someone would actually connect 16V AC to the s88 and designed it to tolerate that too... you will just have to try it...
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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