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Offline Joseph Meiring  
#1 Posted : 02 January 2011 22:02:23(UTC)
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Joseph Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,157
Location: Western Cape Cape Town
A while ago I asked for assistance re my loco 3309 surging and not reversing when activating trafo(analogue, plastic blue trafo); I fitted extra power feeds at the point where it seemed to be happening the most, and all seemed ok for a while. But then I noticed all my locos were playing up (shooting forward and not reversing), and it was doing it all over the track, on all the circuits, with any of the transformers, the old metal, and blue plastic ones. It wasn't ongoing tho, and would come right again after a while. I set up a small test track, and the same thing was happening on the test track.
But I have noticed of late that certain of the house lights were flickering at times, sometimes going quite dim, and then bright again. (An electrician is coming around this week to check out the wiring). Could this have an affect on the voltage to my track, causing it not to supply enough volts to enable reversing to take place?....my knowledge on things electrical is rather limited!
I even went to friends house nearby, with some test track, and tested some locos there, with no problems.....makes me wonder?!?...
Any thoughts?....M track Joe
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Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 02 January 2011 23:53:29(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Joe Meiring wrote:
But I have noticed of late that certain of the house lights were flickering at times, sometimes going quite dim, and then bright again.

If the same happens with the transformer feed, than you should see trains slowing down and/or having problems to reverse direction.
If only parts of your house are affected, this can still be a problem of the electric company (three phases are delivered to your house, maybe only one or two are affected).

A few months ago we had a problem at our company: some computers had no power while others were still running.
Electric company said one phase had failed. It was not completely dead: the standby LED of the monitor was flashing, but the computer was off.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Webmaster  
#3 Posted : 03 January 2011 00:00:54(UTC)
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Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
A power distributor with power surge filtering and also a small backup battery (aka UPS) for occasional voltage drops sounds like a good investment in your case...

APC has some models in their line for home use, mainly to protect computers and such but they are very usable also for model railroads...

I believe they can be found in most "electronics" stores and are worth the investment compared to possible damage to lok decoders...

Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline nevw  
#4 Posted : 03 January 2011 00:15:01(UTC)
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nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
I have a good power supply to the house BUT as a precaution against Brown-outs and Power surges I have fitted a UPS. Best size is about a 750 Volt AMP however I went for a 1 KVA (1000 Volt/amp). I run all power on the Layout through it. Power supplies for the Controller and other Power supplies for the Lights and SIgnal power etc.

If there is a power surge you are protected as the change over to the batteries in measured in Milli seconds, same for low power on to batteries.

If ther is a total power failure I can run the system for about 30 minures so plenty of time to play then when the Boss gets angry you can shut down safely.

A UPS is a good investment to protect your train investment as well as providing a VERY Stable Power supply to the layout.

NN
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
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Offline Joseph Meiring  
#5 Posted : 03 January 2011 08:39:34(UTC)
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Joseph Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,157
Location: Western Cape Cape Town
Thanx Tom, Juhan and Neville- that's prob why I've also noticed trains slowing down suddenly at certain times - I have fitted extra power feeds, but to no avail; as I'm writing I am running loco on my test track, and all is fine, until I see the study lamp flicker and dim, then the loco won't reverse, and slows down too, so I think a UPS is the answer....
thanks again, M track Joe
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Offline kariosls37  
#6 Posted : 03 January 2011 08:55:49(UTC)
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kariosls37

New Zealand   
Joined: 02/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,067
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
H0 wrote:
Joe Meiring wrote:
But I have noticed of late that certain of the house lights were flickering at times, sometimes going quite dim, and then bright again.

If the same happens with the transformer feed, than you should see trains slowing down and/or having problems to reverse direction.
If only parts of your house are affected, this can still be a problem of the electric company (three phases are delivered to your house, maybe only one or two are affected).

A few months ago we had a problem at our company: some computers had no power while others were still running.
Electric company said one phase had failed. It was not completely dead: the standby LED of the monitor was flashing, but the computer was off.


I would not say that every house is connected to three phase. The norm here is a single phase, with large power consumers or consumers with three-phase equipment(some types of motors and ovens ect.)

What usually happens here is: a few houses connected to phase 1, then the same number connected to phase 2 and then another set connected to phase 3.
I remember in Holland that you had to pay extra to get "krachtstroom" connected to your house, which I think is three phase, so I think there is a simular system there

The power variations must be quite large to cause the reversing problems. with a 230V power supply and a 24V reversing pulse(from memory) a 1V drop in the reversing voltage requires a drop of 9.6V at the power socket!

In saying that, our water pump(we have a water tank, no town water) dims the lights for a split second when it starts up, but that is not continuous.

Rick
(did a paper on electrical engineering)
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Offline nevw  
#7 Posted : 03 January 2011 09:08:17(UTC)
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nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
Rick,
In certain areas I have seen the Mains Voltage drop to approx 160 Volts. This was happening at around the same time each working day and it lasted for about 30 minutes.

Caused by a factory down the road a bit restarting their machinery. caused merry hell with the computers until we installed a UPS

Same I have seen a surge up around 300 V. Burns up all of the houshold appliances only after a few seconds.


NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
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Offline Joseph Meiring  
#8 Posted : 03 January 2011 09:21:56(UTC)
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Joseph Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,157
Location: Western Cape Cape Town
Hi guys
We have single phase to our house...
Testing my blue plastic Trafo (6631) with a multimeter:
max speed setting: goes from 15.3V when lights are flickering, to 17.6V when normal.
reverse pulse: alternates between 22.1V to 26.4V.
I think I have MAJOR probs.....?!
Joe
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Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 03 January 2011 10:39:29(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
kariosls37 wrote:
I would not say that every house is connected to three phase. The norm here is a single phase, with large power consumers or consumers with three-phase equipment

In Germany there are three phases, each 230 V versus ground; 400 V between two phases.
Our oven uses all three phases and I guess that the outlets in different rooms are connected to different phases.
We don't have any outlets with three phases.

At the office, as I told you, one phase failed leaving some outlets dead while other outlets were still operating. So I know for sure that different outlets are served by different phases.

"Krachtstroom" or strong current is only a matter of the fuses installed (AFAIK).
16 A for a fuse that serves one or two rooms, 3x 16 A or even 3x 25 A for boilers and ovens that need more power.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Ian555  
#10 Posted : 03 January 2011 10:55:29(UTC)
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Ian555

Scotland   
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 20,240
Location: Scotland
Hi Tom,

In the UK it is also not the normal to have 3 phases into a domestic dwelling.

The service strip at the front of our house did have a 3 phase supply fitted and so the house is on a single phase (yellow) and the garage has a 3 phase supply (reguires different consumer panel) for use with welding equipment, and we also used the 3 phases to different sections of the garage,ie living area upstairs.

As you say each individual plug can only be supplied from 1 phase.

This also gives the advantage that if you have a power cut, it does not always affect all 3 phases.

ie, the house can have no power with power still on in sections of the garage.

Ian.
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Offline kariosls37  
#11 Posted : 03 January 2011 12:58:26(UTC)
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kariosls37

New Zealand   
Joined: 02/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,067
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Nev wrote:
Quote:
In certain areas I have seen the Mains Voltage drop to approx 160 Volts. This was happening at around the same time each working day and it lasted for about 30 minutes.

Caused by a factory down the road a bit restarting their machinery. caused merry hell with the computers until we installed a UPS


That sounds like the same effect as our waterpump, only larger.
At the local vintage raiway's workshop last saturday, someone was turning a wheelset on the wheel lathe, which is old and has a beast of a motorThumpUp Every time he started it the leadlight I was using flickered. Exiting when your'e derusting the inside of a loco's water tank.

Tom, the reason that I presume "krachtstroom" is three phase is because we have a oven that we brought with us that runs on it, and to hook it up here would probably cost money to have the wiring done.

I agree with the rest of your text, I am just trying to say that not every dwellng uses more than 1 phase (plus neutral). Only Joe can tell us the real situation in Cape Town.

Cheers,
Rick
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Offline H0  
#12 Posted : 03 January 2011 13:22:08(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
kariosls37 wrote:
Only Joe can tell us the real situation in Cape Town.

Yep, this is an international forum and we learn about the differences in the world.
And one phase or three doesn't make much difference with this problem, but could explain why lights flicker in one room (or house) while they are stable in another room (or house).

The electrician must find out if the voltage drop occurs inside the house (which would indicate a dangerous wiring problem that could set the house on fire) or outside the house (which can be worked around with a UPS).
Probably the problem is outside the house, and we know a cure for that.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Joseph Meiring  
#13 Posted : 03 January 2011 13:46:30(UTC)
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Joseph Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,157
Location: Western Cape Cape Town
Thanx Rick, Neville,Tom, Ian...that's what the electrician told me as well, it sounds to him like faulty wiring inside the house, and is a fire hazard! - he is coming Tuesday morn to check out everything. I have been to our neighbor and actually tested the trafo/locos there for a considerable time, she is away on holiday, with no problems whatsoever.
As far as I'm aware, we have single phase. Working from home, welding etc, you need to apply for 3 phase to the local council, and of course pay more for it.
My concern is the fluctuation in reversing pulse - from just over 22 to almost 26V! There is a UPS available at the local computer shop, 600VA/360W, Voltage range is 162-290VAC. Would this suffice?
Thanks so much for all the help-just what would we do without this FORUM!!!
PS Think I will check out the trafo output and reversing pulse readings at the neighbor, so I can compare with what I am getting at home!
M track Joe
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Offline nevw  
#14 Posted : 04 January 2011 04:46:03(UTC)
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nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
Joe, that sounds like a nice size.

It should do the job.

N
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
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Offline Joseph Meiring  
#15 Posted : 04 January 2011 16:23:08(UTC)
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Joseph Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,157
Location: Western Cape Cape Town
nevw wrote:
Joe, that sounds like a nice size.

It should do the job.

N

Thanx Neville - had the electricians out today, sorry everyone, we DO have 3 phase! Blushing There were loose connections on the Council side, (on the street pole - we still have the old overhead wiring to the house), and in the DB box there were some pretty bad connections to 2 of the phases, making and breaking - so after much replacing/tightening/cleaning.... ALL IS WELL BigGrin
thanks again to everyone for all the help - as always this Forum is indispensable! now I can get back to the wiring again - what a pleasure to have all the locos running again as they should!
M track Joe
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Offline Ian555  
#16 Posted : 04 January 2011 16:36:36(UTC)
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Ian555

Scotland   
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 20,240
Location: Scotland
Hi Joe,

That's good news, Märklin Loco's saved the day. ThumpUp

Ian.
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Offline nevw  
#17 Posted : 04 January 2011 23:21:00(UTC)
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nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
REally good news Joe.

AS Ian Said Marklin gave indications of another larger problem.

Nev

PS: a UPS is still a good idea to protect the train electronics etc

NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
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