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Offline Carlos  
#1 Posted : 23 May 2016 16:32:28(UTC)
Carlos

United States   
Joined: 15/11/2014(UTC)
Posts: 126
Location: Freeport, New York
Hello to everybody:
What is a DCC locomotive ? I have a lot of Marklin locos which I will convert to digital, and I don't know if some of them are "DCC"

There is a section in the new Central Station manual titled : "CREATING A LOCOMOTIVE IN DCC".

Thank you in advance, Regards,

Carlos
Offline Goofy  
#2 Posted : 23 May 2016 17:38:04(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
Originally Posted by: Carlos Go to Quoted Post
Hello to everybody:
What is a DCC locomotive ? I have a lot of Marklin locos which I will convert to digital, and I don't know if some of them are "DCC"

There is a section in the new Central Station manual titled : "CREATING A LOCOMOTIVE IN DCC".

Thank you in advance, Regards,

Carlos


DCC is an protocol.
DCC locomotive stands for two rail with the DCC protocol.
You can also use same protocol for the three rail,if you so like.
If yours Märklin locos do have pick up shoes,they can only use with three rail type C and K tracks.
If not less you decides to convert to two rail?
Some of the Märklinist choice DCC protocol and other use MM/mfx.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 23 May 2016 18:07:24(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Carlos!
Originally Posted by: Carlos Go to Quoted Post
I have a lot of Marklin locos which I will convert to digital, and I don't know if some of them are "DCC"
DCC locomotives are digital.
So your analogue locos are not DCC.

If you have non-Märklin digital locos then most likely some of them will be DCC.
Analogue locos converted to digital may also support DCC.

Märklin used MM for H0 gauge for many years before coming up with mfx, but for 1 gauge and G gauge and for Trix H0 they also offer DCC.

MM, DCC, and mfx are "digital languages" or protocols used between controller and decoder.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Carlos  
#4 Posted : 23 May 2016 19:51:29(UTC)
Carlos

United States   
Joined: 15/11/2014(UTC)
Posts: 126
Location: Freeport, New York
Hi Tom!

Thank you for your prompt answer.

Regards,

Carlos
Offline Minok  
#5 Posted : 25 May 2016 00:45:46(UTC)
Minok

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Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
I'd add that I think that you will want to choose one protocol family to use with your locomotives/trains: DCC or mfx, when you go digital, as I think the control system used will only speak in one protocol to the track (correct me if I'm wrong).

If you have a mix of different makes you wan to the protocol they all have in common, so if you have non-Märklin digital decoders in the mix you would likely go for DCC, whereas if you are all Märklin you might want to use mfx.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
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Offline witzlerh  
#6 Posted : 25 May 2016 01:25:38(UTC)
witzlerh

Canada   
Joined: 25/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 417
Location: Sherwood Park, AB, Canada
Minok.
For multi-protocol controllers like the ESU 51000 or 52000 or the CS1 thru 3 or the Z-21 as well as others that I have not played with....
AND
when those controllers are set for all protocols...

DCC is considered the "loudest" as it is "spoken" first when a command is sent. mfx and mm( or known as fx) are 2nd or 3rd (or the other way around).
You can buy a decoder that can handle many languages but the 1st thing that you do with the decoder is select a single language...and I think that the NMRA that created the DCC protocol required that any new unprogrammed decoder recognize DCC first or be a default language.

DCC and fx languages are only uni-directional. E.g. The central station transmits the address and variable(speed change for example) and expects the decoder to obey.

mfx can have the decoder "speak back" to the controller that it had complied with the command or something similar.

I am not sure where SELECTRIX and other protocols fit in.

The advice to pick a protocol and stick with it is a good one unless you like programming in different programming languages. Each of the protocols have their advantages and disadvantages or just plain differences..(cv values for example) that can make programming and troubleshooting more interesting...but that is a different story...i mean thread.

I learned this when I wanted to program a multi-protocol decoder for fx...it only responded to DCC. After a week of messing and asking around, I then forced the central station to only work with fx (MM) and then I was able to program the decoder in fx and have it only recognize fx languages. Once I completed programming, I set my central station back to multi protocol. No problems since then.
Harald
CS2 DB & Canadian Era 3-6
Offline RayF  
#7 Posted : 25 May 2016 08:21:57(UTC)
RayF

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Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
On a Marklin mfx controller, mfx will always have priority unless you disable it.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 25 May 2016 08:29:33(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
I'd add that I think that you will want to choose one protocol family to use with your locomotives/trains: DCC or mfx, when you go digital, as I think the control system used will only speak in one protocol to the track (correct me if I'm wrong).
The controller only emits a single protocol at any time, but can emit all protocols in the same second.
Using DCC, MM, and mfx simultaneously is no general problem. I never tried SX, but it should also work.
mfx was designed for compatibility with DCC: no valid mfx command will be a valid DCC command.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 25 May 2016 08:33:34(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
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Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
On a Marklin mfx controller, mfx will always have priority unless you disable it.
I think there is no priority in the controller, but mfx has the highest priority in Märklin decoders.
With recent ESU decoders, RailCom+ has the highest priority.

Märklin decoders prioritize DCC over MM while ESU decoders give the same priority to DCC and MM. I like and prefer DCC.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline RayF  
#10 Posted : 25 May 2016 13:07:26(UTC)
RayF

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Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
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Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
On a Marklin mfx controller, mfx will always have priority unless you disable it.
I think there is no priority in the controller, but mfx has the highest priority in Märklin decoders.
With recent ESU decoders, RailCom+ has the highest priority.

Märklin decoders prioritize DCC over MM while ESU decoders give the same priority to DCC and MM. I like and prefer DCC.


Sorry, I meant to write "When using an mfx controller with Marklin mfx decoders, mfx will always have priority unless you disable it."

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Carlos  
#11 Posted : 25 May 2016 14:31:42(UTC)
Carlos

United States   
Joined: 15/11/2014(UTC)
Posts: 126
Location: Freeport, New York
Thank you to every body for all your answers.

My regards,

Carlos
Offline Minok  
#12 Posted : 25 May 2016 22:09:12(UTC)
Minok

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Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
I'd add that I think that you will want to choose one protocol family to use with your locomotives/trains: DCC or mfx, when you go digital, as I think the control system used will only speak in one protocol to the track (correct me if I'm wrong).
The controller only emits a single protocol at any time, but can emit all protocols in the same second.
Using DCC, MM, and mfx simultaneously is no general problem. I never tried SX, but it should also work.
mfx was designed for compatibility with DCC: no valid mfx command will be a valid DCC command.



That makes sense and appears that the controllers (eg Central Station) do give you the freedom.

There is no technical (electrical) reason a controller system cannot speak all of the protocols - if communicating with a device it knows is mfx, it could use mfx when sending that device commands, and when communicating to something that is known to be in DCC mode the controller could send out DCC commands.

Programming is a separate issue from running - since programming (and hence the programming track) has to assume that there could be multiple decoders that could respond to the same address when programming, or just for the process of setting the decoder address at all.

Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
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Offline TEEWolf  
#13 Posted : 06 June 2016 03:53:40(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: Carlos Go to Quoted Post
Hello to everybody:
What is a DCC locomotive ? I have a lot of Marklin locos which I will convert to digital, and I don't know if some of them are "DCC"

There is a section in the new Central Station manual titled : "CREATING A LOCOMOTIVE IN DCC".

Thank you in advance, Regards,

Carlos


Hi Carlos,

in the meantime: Wikipedia helps very often. I knew the German record. So I looked the English one up for you. The link is here DCC at Wikipedia

That is a typical Maerklin marketing gag to explain an abbreviation - like DCC - with the abbreviation DCC. When I restarted my hobby with the model railway (or do you prefer railroad?) I had the same problems as you do. What the hell is DCC, mfx, mfx+, etc. etc.? In the meantime I think I got it, more or less. For Märklin (as we Germans write it) or Maerklin (as the English write it) are the major digital protocol is mfx. Mfx is only used by the alternating current (AC) system for the three line power core tracks. Where DCC is mainly used for the direct current (DC) system for the two line power core tracks. But you also can use DCC for the AC 3-line core tracks as well. To explain here why and how it functions – sorry it would lead too far away from your question and is here not necessary. Maerklin configured his digital control systems - as MS 2, CS 2 and so on – in a way that they understand both: mfx and DCC signals. You even can mix them up. But Maerklin recommends to shut of that protocol you do not use. Because errors may occur by regular operations. So far with Maerklin you have a choice, but not for Trix. I use only the mfx protocol, because it is more convenient as the DCC, gives me the chance to play with mfx+ the new driver experience and my used digital addresses do not exceed the set-up mfx range.

Mfx+ is originally mfx with an extended possibility playing your locomotive or loco on screen at a CS 2 (or CS3 or computer screen or tablet or Iphone like in a simulator modus) as from the seat of a real engine driver. While you are playing you get a feeling like the flight simulator from Microsoft does this already for planes over many years. With the DCC protocol this is not possible.

Meanwhile Maerklin issued a new book “Einstieg in Märklin Digital” Art# 03081 - http://www.maerklin.de/e...s/details/article/03081/

Even if you do not speak or read German, I would recommend to you doing the investment of 20 € for this book. Because it has a lot of pictures, overviews, graphics, tablets, plans, code tables, etc. which are self explaining and will help you. You see all the digital articles in an overview with a short description beside it from the beginning of the digital area at Maerklin.

The text itself you may translate, if necessary, e.g. with the google translator. Then 70% of the work is already done. The rest what you have to know you may ask here in the forum. And if you may specify your text passage by site, tip number or description as “the green box in the middle of side 119 Update-Tipp” (this is a real existing quotation) would help me to understand and explain your question here in the forum or to tell you where you find this article in English on the internet pages from Maerklin. Because a lot of the information is already published somewhere in the deepness of the internet.

And perhaps Maerklin brings an English version sometimes as well – but I do not know this. Sooner or later they have to bring an update, because the book only describes the CS 2 and the CS 3 is missing. So a follow up has to be done, because the CS 2 is no longer available. Unfortunately the new CS 3 is also not yet available. A ridiculous situation. I wanted to buy one, because at the moment I do only have the MS 2. But nowadays no chance. The old CS 2 is still available over a dealer, yes, but the price is still by about 600 € in Germany, which is for the CS 2 meanwhile far too expensive. More than about 200 € I would not pay for an old CS 2 and this has to include the switched-mode power supply art# 60061 for 230 voltage or # 60065 for 120 voltage. So I am waiting till the CS 3 is available. It should be in the 3rd quarter this year. We will see.

Regards

Wolfgang


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Offline H0  
#14 Posted : 06 June 2016 08:21:00(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Where DCC is mainly used for the direct current (DC) system for the two line power core tracks. But you also can use DCC for the AC 3-line core tracks as well.
DCC is neither AC nor DC. When using DCC you do not use either AC or DC.
Märklin is a "2-line" system. Only Trix Express is a "3-line" system.


Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
So far with Maerklin you have a choice, but not for Trix.
With Trix you have a choice: buy older locos with SX and DCC or buy newer locos with mfx and DCC - or buy other brands.
With Märklin you have a similar choice. Neither Trix nor Märklin allow you to disable mfx in the loco decoder. That's the real problem.
I disabled mfx in my controller and now I have reliable operation with DCC and MM. I prefer locos with DCC and companies who do not support DCC with their factory-installed decoders lose big parts of my budget.


Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Mfx is only used by the alternating current (AC) system for the three line power core tracks.
You must have missed that mfx is also used for gauge I, Trix H0, and LGB. Brawa, Roco, and Piko also sold two-rail locos with mfx aka M4.


Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
While you are playing you get a feeling like the flight simulator from Microsoft does this already for planes over many years. With the DCC protocol this is not possible.
Microsoft Train Simulator simulates the operation of a steam loco. mfx+ is a spitting image of a steam loco.
The Z21 gives you cab control with DCC and MM locos. The big difference: the coal consumption is not tracked in the locomotive. I never tried the Z21 so I cannot say whether it qualifies as a simulator - the CS2 does not. But in general I like the Z21 approach of supporting cab control for all locos, even with legacy decoders.


CS3/CS3+ were once announced for Q2, then it was June, now it is Q3.




Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline TEEWolf  
#15 Posted : 08 June 2016 23:35:04(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
DCC is neither AC nor DC. When using DCC you do not use either AC or DC.
Märklin is a "2-line" system. Only Trix Express is a "3-line" system.


DCC is the abbreviation for “Digital Command Control”. It is a protocol, a "vehicle" for transporting data in a certain structure to and from the controller to the decoder, but it is not a type of a new current supply system. Correct is that a complete digital system itself, is a kind of a “mixture current” or as I call it "digital current". These are my words and a free translation of the German used word “Mischstrom”. For me it is not a new type of a current beside AC or DC. I have to commit, I did not found any translation for “Mischstrom” in English. But this current is a kind of mixture between AC and DC, because it has a rectangle alternating phase including parts from DC and parts from AC.

Please, it is much too complicated to explain it here more detailed. It is a topic for a seminar in physics or another thread. But for a hobby railway user really not of major interest.

It is common sense, that Maerklin uses by its 3-line an “digital AC system”, Trix and all the others 2-line DC suppliers, using a “digital DC system”. I would have appreciated, if you could have explained, what you understand by a 2-line or 3-line system. For me Maerklin has a 3-line system. It is that system, where you have in the middle of the tracks small dots, from where you get via a wiper your power for the engine (1st-line) and you have the steel rails left and right of the track as the 2nd- and 3rd-line. Please correct it, if you think it is different, but then please explain it with common English used words. Hopefully understandable for everybody? Perhaps a certain challenge to all forum members speaking English as their mother tongue?


What I was writing was so far not correct, because I wrote about the mfx decoder and it should have been the mfx+ decoder. What is logic, because the mfx is a multiprotocol decoder. By definition it must be usable for more than one protocol. So I searched on Maerklins homepage and indeed I found the the CV listing for configurating the mfx decoder

http://www.maerklin.de/d...uerung/maerklin-decoder/

Unfortunately this page is not available in English. But at the bottom, “Fact no 7”, I translate this item here



Translation from the Maerklin homepage:

"Fact 7: Compatibility

The new decoder generation is compatible with all Märklin digital formats and the DCC system.

Immediately operable with the devices 6020, 6021, Mobile Station and Central Station.

The digital format is automatically detected as analog operation with AC and DC.

The major digital programmed values (e.g. speed, control, auxiliary functions, etc.) remain always in their function, even in the analog modus.

Technical hints:
programmable with the protocols MM, mfx and DCC
individual protocols can be switched off."



Please find here the CV listing for the fx (Motorola) settings

http://www.maerklin.de/f...CV-Liste_FX__28MM_29.pdf

Please find here the CV listing for the DCC settings

http://www.maerklin.de/f...mLD-mSD_CV-Liste_DCC.pdf

In both list under CV 50 you find the codes for alternating the format of the decoder. It shows that you do not have to set up your total control system to one format. A mixture of mfx and DCC decoders are indeed usable at the same time. You define it on the decoder itself.


Here are - in English - more information about the new decoder generation.

http://www.maerklin.de/e...ducts/new-items/decoder/
http://www.maerklin.de/f...n/Leitfaden_online_E.pdf

In this information Maerklin writes that they change with the new decoders to a 32-bit decoder system (#1 why a new decoder?). It is very interesting, because the CS 3 and CS 3 plus are coming now with the 32-bit architecture too. Whereas the CS 2 still has the 8-bit architecture. For myself it is the main reason to buy no more a CS 2 and wait for the CS 3. But I got the information in another Maerklin German forum, that the CS 2, if you use it as a slave, should be then usable like a booster. So the CS 2 will always remain a useful function for the future.

Yes, I complain a lot about Maerklin Cool, but mainly only about their marketing. Because I think the Maerklin engineers do a good job and they know what they are doing. That was and is the reason why I decided myself buying Maerklin. I think Maerklin offers technically a good quality Huh, but badly presented by their marketing.Crying E.g. to supply their own goods.

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Offline H0  
#16 Posted : 09 June 2016 08:24:57(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Märklin and Trix Express are "three-rail", Trix International and the competitors are two-rail. I never heard "three-line" and "two-line" before.
Märklin uses two wires - red and brown. It's not correct to call it "Dreileiter" in German, it only has two wires. Trix Express has three wires.

With M track I have a tin-plate trackbed with two tin-plate rails connected to it - and an insulated centre rail. I cannot understand why some people insist on calling this "three-conductor" (Dreileiter) - there is trackbed and centre rail and that makes two electrical conductors.

We learned on this forum that digital current is "bipolar pulsed DC" - where bipolar indicates alternating polarities.

Some people use "AC" for three-rail and "DC" for two-rail. Better use "two-rail" and "three-rail" instead.
Digital current is the same for two-rail and three-rail - and talking about "AC digital" and "DC digital" gives the wrong impression that there were differences.


CV 50 can be used to disable some protocols in some decoders. CV 50 does not work for most factory-installed decoders. This applies to Trix locos where decoders only support mfx and DCC and also to Märklin locos where you get mfx and MM.
Some Trix loco manuals even recommend to disable protocols that are not needed - but CV 50 is not supported by those locos.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline TEEWolf  
#17 Posted : 12 June 2016 03:13:51(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Märklin and Trix Express are "three-rail", Trix International and the competitors are two-rail. I never heard "three-line" and "two-line" before.
Märklin uses two wires - red and brown. It's not correct to call it "Dreileiter" in German, it only has two wires. Trix Express has three wires.

With M track I have a tin-plate trackbed with two tin-plate rails connected to it - and an insulated centre rail. I cannot understand why some people insist on calling this "three-conductor" (Dreileiter) - there is trackbed and centre rail and that makes two electrical conductors.

We learned on this forum that digital current is "bipolar pulsed DC" - where bipolar indicates alternating polarities.

Some people use "AC" for three-rail and "DC" for two-rail. Better use "two-rail" and "three-rail" instead.
Digital current is the same for two-rail and three-rail - and talking about "AC digital" and "DC digital" gives the wrong impression that there were differences.


CV 50 can be used to disable some protocols in some decoders. CV 50 does not work for most factory-installed decoders. This applies to Trix locos where decoders only support mfx and DCC and also to Märklin locos where you get mfx and MM.
Some Trix loco manuals even recommend to disable protocols that are not needed - but CV 50 is not supported by those locos.




Thanks for the explanation. Well I understand your point of view. But make a long story short: I will use the term system with centre rail and system without a centre rail.

Similar with the DCC. I do not want the problems you described and even Maerklin writes that there may occure malefunctions by using DCC and mfx in a mixture. I do not understand this, except they have not done a good perfect software programming. Anyway for myself I decided to buy only mfx+ locos, and that`s it.

Offline H0  
#18 Posted : 12 June 2016 08:10:15(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Similar with the DCC. I do not want the problems you described and even Maerklin writes that there may occure malefunctions by using DCC and mfx in a mixture. I do not understand this, except they have not done a good perfect software programming. Anyway for myself I decided to buy only mfx+ locos, and that`s it./quote]I didn't have problems mixing mfx and DCC.
mfx has problems, even if mfx is the only protocol. I disabled mfx and now I have reliable operation.
I don't have any mfx+ locos and I intend to keep it that way. I'd buy locos with mfx+ if they also have DCC and allow to disable mfx via CV 50.

I used DCC for years before mfx came.

There is no general problem with mixing mfx and DCC. Both protocols are on by default with CS2 and MS2, with Märklin and ESU decoders.
DCC is older and mfx was designed for compatibility with DCC.
If it wasn't for the design flaws of automatic (and compulsory) mfx registration ...
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Goofy  
#19 Posted : 12 June 2016 09:28:02(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post

Thanks for the explanation. Well I understand your point of view. But make a long story short: I will use the term system with centre rail and system without a centre rail.

Similar with the DCC. I do not want the problems you described and even Maerklin writes that there may occure malefunctions by using DCC and mfx in a mixture. I do not understand this, except they have not done a good perfect software programming. Anyway for myself I decided to buy only mfx+ locos, and that`s it.



I prefer DCC protocol for both 2 and 3 rail system.
If you did tried to buy one ESU digital locomotive and use DCC,you will understand me.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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