Hi Symeon,

I don't have any mini C-Sine locos either. However, I agree with your observations from the Stummi forum. I think that if such a large number of people experience these problems, then there definitely IS a problem. In addition to the ones you mentioned, there also appears to be a problem on some layouts when C-Sine locos go from one booster section to another.

I'm not in the market for new locos (C-Sine or other) anyway (budget!), but if I was I'd stay clear of the C-Sine until Marklin have resolved the problems. I believe they have at least acknowledged now that there is a problem, which is a start.

I you have trouble starting your 2007 budget, I'd be more than happy to help you with that

I've never been one to buy the latest technology as soon as it comes out, so I don't yet have any locos with c-sine (not even the original ones). I still use my 6021 controller and have no plans to change to Systems either.

Having said that, there are some very nice new models coming out at the moment, which might be irresistable.

Last year I acquired 6 or 7 new locos, none of which were from the year's selection. I did intend to get the Br290, but I missed the boat on that. This year I think will follow the same pattern, getting perhaps one loco from the 2007 selection, and some others from the past. There are so many nice models out there on dealers shelves at very reasonable prices that it makes sense.

Getting to the point of the thread, by buying only one or maybe two locos with the new compact c-sine, I am limiting the chance of getting a dud, while still using my modelling budget on Marklin.

Does this make sense?

Ray

Please bear in mind that if you state something to be a problem continously it will eventually become a problem for sure. Up to now, the only "real" problem is the E10 (39120). Others, like the BR 01 and RE 4/4 I are very nicely running models. Nothing wrong with them. AFAIK.

On Stummi forums. There is may be group of about 10 a 15 people only bashing on the new Marklin sinus engine. And Markling bashing is very populair in Germany.

I have four locs with the new sinusengine. The new railbus, the blue V90, the new Br01 and the black Br61. They all run smoothly with my CS.

Also I see nothing of a voltage sensitivity. I have used three of the locs with the new sinus engine with sound one and a fourth loc the T3. I saw not one sinus engine loc slowing down.

I also have asked my dealer if he have to send back a lot of locs with the new sinusengine. He says not more then other types of locs.

I have also tested the new sinusengine locs with a IB on the club layout. MFX locs drives better with a linear speedcurve with only 14 speedsteps. But with a CS the locs will become a lot faster. Problem is the big difference between 14 in MM and 128 steps with mfx. With 14 speedsteps you see a difference between the speedsteps. With 128 every is very smooth.

And locs with the new sinusengine are very still. Can slow down very nice and smooth if you program the accleration and decentralisation good. But that is just a way of trail and error.

But their is a big difference between 14 our 128 speedsteps.

And every engine type has his strong points and weak points.
Stong points are the power of this type of engine. It is a very strong engine. It is a still engine. It used very little power but that makes it also more sensitive.

Accleration and decentralisation can be better. It is not so good yet as with the older 60901. But the new sinusengine is not bad. It is a lot better then the old five star engine.

And if their is a problem you can be sure that Marklin is working on it.

From Stummi's forum. This comes directly from Marklin.

F: Wie sieht es aus mit den neuen Mini C-Sinus? Die rucken doch und sind spannungsempfindlich?

A: Ja, das Problem ist uns bekannt, wir arbeiten auch bereits daran.

F: Wie soll das dann gelöst werden?

A: Es wird ein Softwareupdate für die Decoder geben, dies wird die bekannten Probleme mit der Spannungsabhängigkeit und auch auf Bremsstrecken beheben.

OK, that's a relief then. I can't see a time when I could ever have a layout where I could run 10 to 12 locos at the same time.

Ray

Even on our modulair club layout we can not drive with 10 a 12 locs.

[:0][:0][:0]
so how this decoder s/w update iw going to be done? will we have to send decoders back to Maerklin for refurbishing or just do the update through our 6021 control unit? I truly find this a crapy story!
How does M* launches a new product when they are not sure about it's quality? Why do they replace a reliable and highly esteemed motor like the c-sine with a new motor that obviously has not been tested sufficiently? Someone should tell M* that innovation and quality have to converge.

I wouldn't call the new C-sine engines "low quality". They have a few design flaws (mainly immature SW, it seems) but the general impression is still very good. New technology always has "teething" problems, and these haven't been worse than usual, rather the opposite.

What you could have expected though, is that Märklin would have fixed those "teething" problems a bit quicker.

In adopting the new compact C-sinus , one of several purposes is also to adopt a new transmission which,in many cases, allows a central positioning of the motor when necessary ( F.E. on light BoBo)and to allow more space to install other features....

My personnal experience concerns 2 loks : I test the new BR 01 and the new Re 4/4 1 . I find their behaviour very good.

IMHO , a special award for the new RE 4/4 I : its behaviour on tracks is TREMENDOUS [^][^]...Really , really good !!

But if you use mfx and does not change what has to be changed. You will have problems. If you use mfx but still uses your switches analoog and use this with the trafo you use also for powering your ms our CS. You will have problems. If you use old signals with the metal bottumplate and will not remove these you will have problems.
If you connect the brown wire from the light trafo to the trafo for the CS / mobile station you can get problems. All these things you can read in the manuals.


If you use a mfx lok analog with a old trafo you will have problems.
If you a mfx loc on a dirty layout you can get problems.
If you use a mfx loc without letting your loc drive in. The loc will drive not nice.

The only problem their is I think is that the mfx locs with the new sinus engine are make for mfx and digital use. I think the problems are with the backwarts combility (does not know the right words)this is may be not so great as Marklin wants use to believe. And maybe their are some locs with the new sinus engine which have a problem of not enough mass connection.

And if people complain that their loc does not drive nicely with the lowest possible speed. I am not amazed at all. I have a lot of trains with almost every engine Marklin has used with the good old 60901 decoder that will "ruckell" sidder at the lowest possible speed. My new locs with the new sinus engine are doing just the same thing that other locs also do. But the locs with the new sinusengine do it a lot lesser then the older Marklin types of engines.

I have tested this with a couple of trains of me.

And the new version of sinus engine is also used in locs which have a far better price tag. The new br218 can be bought in Germany from as low as 160 euro. And the new version is a lot better then the old five star engine from Marklin.

It is quite difficult to run 10 - 12 locos. I know, because I have tested it. However, you can easily get the same load situation with only 3-4 locos, if you for example have a number of lighted coaches after each one of them. So the problem isn't just theoretical.

I agree with Perz,
problem 4 ( handling power interruption as you are adjusting the controller , is a real problem )
It is a correct behaviour in case of unwitting & unexpected electric cuts & micro-cuts but it is bad & dangerous when it occurs as you are adjusting the speed knob position.

I have no power interruptions.What do you mean by this?
Reason my switches signals are on a different trafo.

Ray: If we don't discuss these problems, people don't know there is a problem until AFTER they have spent their money. I used to buy Marklin because I knew it would be a quality product. I'm now starting to regret my commitment to three rail, since Marklin has slipped to the hit or miss quality we have come to accept from most other manufacturers, not only in the model train area. You need information before you can "vote with your wallet". Discussions like this provide that information. As to Marklin bashing, when it is deserved, it is not bashing but constructive criticism.

Hi Ron, don't get me wrong. If you look at the top of this thread you will see that I put in my contribution to the topic after reading and taking on board the other comments.

What annoys me is that every thread of this type degenerates into entrenched views without any valuable information after the first few contributions.

I suppose I should vote with my keyboard, and keep out of these discussions.

Ray

AFAIK the problems with the compact c-sine come from a PCB switched in between decoder and motor. I don't know if ESU can be blamed for that PCB.

I found the problem with all my 3 compact c-sine motors - in test situations, but not in normal operation.
It depends a lot on how you power your layout.
I have one booster for the left track and one booster for the right; so I can run two trains without interference.

But people who use different boosters for different modules experience problems when a compact c-sine loco passes from a module with high booster load to a module with low booster load or vice versa or if a train with lots of light bulbs enters the section where the compact c-sine loco is running.
This problem also depends on the type of booster/transformer you use.

The default speed curve is a pain - and you need a CS to change it.

I ordered a E10.3 last summer - I hope it will arrive with a flawless compact c-sine.
I ordered several new 2007 locos - but none with 39xxx number.

I believe the new small c-sinus engine is full of problems.

39800, V200
Problems with high start speed which could not be changed in the CV's. Also at low speed not running smoothly. I have seen 3 of those loc's at the dealer and all showed the same issue. The loc has been with Marklin for 4 months for repair and the problems were not fixed at return. I returned the loc to the dealer

39680, E18
Problems with mid speed, not running smoothly and the loc is now at the repair centre.

All the problems were tested and confirmed by my dealer too. I tested the loc’s with a 6021 and CS.

The railbus is running perfect. So in my case the experience with the new C-sinus is not so good (66% bad experience). I had never any issues with pre-c-sinus loc’s

Regards, Rene

Yes, the worst Marklin runners are those fitted with Lokpilot, I agree too.
I confirm my comments.I must say I had a short experience with new C-sine motor. Only with BR 01 and RE 4/4-I forwhile. It was not on my proper layout, even not my own models . Only few tests at the house of a friend who has bought these loks.
For my part, I have only 5 poles motors,Big c-sinus Loks. I don't like too much the behaviour of the E 120 with Lokpilot decoder,too.

I have been convinced for a long time that ESU are not technically so good with a not so deserved reputation. I feel a lack of experience in MRR.As I look at their background,I feel them more strategic or opportunistic than brilliant or creative (in technics).
That's just my feeling ( in early 2000 I was in touch with an employee whose comments already surprise me..)
I would like to be mistaken...

Davy
It's a bad sign when a manufacturer shows anger and doesn't accept criticism from users & customers.
A serious manufacturer gently has to justify their technical choices , to give more technical explanations , instead of being angry.

In the year 2001, as they were only providing decoders for few ranges of loks from few train manufacturers,one guy from ESU confess that ESU set a partnership with Marklin as main objective. His exact words were : " ... to enter the Marklin fortress"