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Offline jlopez  
#1 Posted : 19 July 2014 06:46:55(UTC)
jlopez

United States   
Joined: 28/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: San Francisco
Hi all wasn't even thinking and used a metal clip to uncouple the cars from the locomotive. I saw a spark, then the car lights went out. All other functions work. Except the car interior lighting. I reset the locomotive and the the cs2. Did I just fry the lights or the function in the chip controlling them.
Offline jlopez  
#2 Posted : 19 July 2014 07:05:16(UTC)
jlopez

United States   
Joined: 28/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: San Francisco
Well I was able to test the lights using another coach, they work. So I am assuming I did something to the coupler off the engine or the decoder itself. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Offline river6109  
#3 Posted : 19 July 2014 07:35:46(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,278
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: jlopez Go to Quoted Post
Well I was able to test the lights using another coach, they work. So I am assuming I did something to the coupler off the engine or the decoder itself. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


when you say the lights are working, did you use another loco/decoder ? and if so you could test the decoder you think is faulty by using either a led (make sure if the connection has a resistor on the decoder or are the resistors on the light strip either way but most probably you contacted the coupler with earth and common plus and there fore ruined the light function.
if its a sound decoder I wouldn't throw it away or get it fixed unless you know how much it costs but rather get a function decoder and this will replace the interior lighting outlet.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline jlopez  
#4 Posted : 19 July 2014 07:53:18(UTC)
jlopez

United States   
Joined: 28/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: San Francisco
I tested it with another coach that had current conducting couplers and a pick up shoe the lights worked. I think I did make contact with the third rail if you will and ruined the light function. It just came today and I spent a a pretty penny for the set. So I will return the locomotive set and see of they can fix it. Otherwise it a gorgeous set and was running marvelously.

Thanks for the advice.
Offline cookee_nz  
#5 Posted : 19 July 2014 11:13:23(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,550
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: jlopez Go to Quoted Post
I tested it with another coach that had current conducting couplers and a pick up shoe the lights worked. I think I did make contact with the third rail if you will and ruined the light function. It just came today and I spent a a pretty penny for the set. So I will return the locomotive set and see of they can fix it. Otherwise it a gorgeous set and was running marvelously.

Thanks for the advice.


I think most of us here have a similar story to tell of a moments innattention or carelessness and an unfortunate outcome so in that at least you are not alone.

I sure can feel your disappointment (at yourself as much as anything else) especially with a new item and all, the excitement and enthusiasm of getting to know it.

Hope the story has a happy ending for you

Cheers

Cookee
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline river6109  
#6 Posted : 19 July 2014 13:39:42(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,278
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: jlopez Go to Quoted Post
I tested it with another coach that had current conducting couplers and a pick up shoe the lights worked. I think I did make contact with the third rail if you will and ruined the light function. It just came today and I spent a a pretty penny for the set. So I will return the locomotive set and see of they can fix it. Otherwise it a gorgeous set and was running marvelously.

Thanks for the advice.

Where ever you send it I would make sure to get some quote of how much it will cost you including postage before sending it off

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline jlopez  
#7 Posted : 19 July 2014 14:40:32(UTC)
jlopez

United States   
Joined: 28/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: San Francisco
Thanks again, I definitely feel very bad about it. It was a birthday present to myself and really hate that I broke such a great model. I bought it new, I just hope that the warranty might cover it. At this point being so much $$ into it, if I'm going to have to pay to have fixed so be it. :(
Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 19 July 2014 20:11:51(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,847
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: jlopez Go to Quoted Post
I bought it new, I just hope that the warranty might cover it.
Probably not.
The question is: will they be able to tell user fault (no warranty) from material fault (warranty)? Probably not (but that depends on how many people kill their decoders this way).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Hackcell  
#9 Posted : 20 July 2014 06:09:29(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 520
I wonder if it's possible to install any sort of fuse in the locos...Confused
Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
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Offline jlopez  
#10 Posted : 20 July 2014 07:30:31(UTC)
jlopez

United States   
Joined: 28/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: San Francisco
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
I wonder if it's possible to install any sort of fuse in the locos...Confused


I wish they did! Just on the off chance there might have been one inside I opened it up. No luck. I think it is a great idea, I was hoping just de powering it or resetting the cs and the engine would do the trick( it does on a 737 ;) ) I did call the store where I bought, they were very sympathetic, told me to ship it back. Hopefully it is covered and an easy fix. If not lesson learned.

Thanks again for the advice and kind words I do feel like such crap ( for lack of a better word) about it all!
Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 20 July 2014 08:38:47(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,847
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
I wonder if it's possible to install any sort of fuse in the locos...
Good point. The decoder should have short circuit and overload protection on all function outputs.

Jaime, I don't have the Super Chief and I don't know whether the interior lights are controlled from a decoder output directly or through an external board.
Maybe you or any other owner of a Super Chief can check with a CS2 what F1 does (either one of AUX1 through AUX4 or a pseudo sound function).

Problem can easily be fixed by replacing the faulty part (either decoder or external board). Repair time will depend on availability of spare parts (decoders should always be available).
I bought a new Trix BR 103 where the external light board was defective out of the box. It arrived at Göppingen more than two months ago and is now waiting for availability of spare parts ...

If it turns out the overload protection failed then there would be ground for a warranty claim.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline grnwtrs  
#12 Posted : 21 July 2014 03:37:37(UTC)
grnwtrs

United States   
Joined: 18/06/2005(UTC)
Posts: 582
Location: El Sobrante
Originally Posted by: jlopez Go to Quoted Post
I tested it with another coach that had current conducting couplers and a pick up shoe the lights worked. I think I did make contact with the third rail if you will and ruined the light function. It just came today and I spent a a pretty penny for the set. So I will return the locomotive set and see of they can fix it. Otherwise it a gorgeous set and was running marvelously.

Thanks for the advice.


Oh Boy, that is really scary. I also have this set, but have yet to put it on the carpebahn.
Matter of fact, I finally got out the Roller Test Stand this past week to test a couple of loks, but
more importantly to see if it would operate.

Well I learned that I could not use the 60653 directly with the test stand, but I digress, and
had to use my favorite 6021. Anyway all went well.

Back to the Super Chief. There is a Marklin/European train meet of July 27/28 (Eurowest 2014)
at the Hiller Air Museum. There are always Marklin reps there in addition to a few of guys that know
their way around Marklin and other European model trains.

Might be worth the gas and admission to have another set of eyes look at your set.

Good luck and think positive!!

Regards
gene
.


Offline jlopez  
#13 Posted : 22 July 2014 09:49:27(UTC)
jlopez

United States   
Joined: 28/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: San Francisco
Originally Posted by: grnwtrs Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jlopez Go to Quoted Post
I tested it with another coach that had current conducting couplers and a pick up shoe the lights worked. I think I did make contact with the third rail if you will and ruined the light function. It just came today and I spent a a pretty penny for the set. So I will return the locomotive set and see of they can fix it. Otherwise it a gorgeous set and was running marvelously.

Thanks for the advice.


Oh Boy, that is really scary. I also have this set, but have yet to put it on the carpebahn.
Matter of fact, I finally got out the Roller Test Stand this past week to test a couple of loks, but
more importantly to see if it would operate.

Well I learned that I could not use the 60653 directly with the test stand, but I digress, and
had to use my favorite 6021. Anyway all went well.

Back to the Super Chief. There is a Marklin/European train meet of July 27/28 (Eurowest 2014)
at the Hiller Air Museum. There are always Marklin reps there in addition to a few of guys that know
their way around Marklin and other European model trains.

Might be worth the gas and admission to have another set of eyes look at your set.

Good luck and think positive!!

Regards
gene
.






Hi Gene,

I got it through Reynaulds and they are taking care of the problem. Can not say enough about the great customer service from them! My suggestion to you would be any time you are messing with the couplers hit the stop button, just cut off power while you work on it. Other then that it ran great, fantastic sound. I ran it on M-track with all the associated switches and some tight turns and it worked great no issues. Solid heavy engine, great cars. You do just have to be careful with the older style switch lanterns as the there is no clearance for the longer cars to pass over them. Not a big deal nor do I expect Marklin to make models at are compatible with those turnouts.

Any way lesson learned and can't wait to get the set back on the rails.

J
Offline Dangermouse  
#14 Posted : 22 July 2014 12:01:08(UTC)
Dangermouse

United Kingdom   
Joined: 01/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 115
Location: Wales
Coffee stirrers make great uncoupling sticks. There seems to be a vogue for wooden ones here at the moment, they're long, narrow, and light coloured so easy to see in the darkness between a couple of coaches. Plus they're non-conductive.

That's a poor decoder design IMO. There should be some sort of overload protection if a short will kill the decoder before it trips the controller out. It's not hard to implement (ESU do it) and the risk of accidentally touching the live rail to the coupler contact should have been foreseen.
You can never have too many Silberlinge
Offline RayF  
#15 Posted : 22 July 2014 13:01:59(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,722
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I've blown light outputs on two ESU decoders by accidentally shorting the light cable to chassis. They are not that well protected. A sudden large current flow like this will kill a decoder irrespective of over-current protection circuits. Shorting to the 3rd rail/pukos is probably even more drastic.

I use the Marklin black plastic manual uncouplers. They are safe and easy to use, and they came for free with a starter set and also with some coupler sets I bought. Being cranked they are easy to get below the level of the coupler bar.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline H0  
#16 Posted : 22 July 2014 15:15:00(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,847
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Shorting to the 3rd rail/pukos is probably even more drastic.
Shorting to the chassis/the outer rails should be more drastic than shorting to the centre rail. Decoder output is minus, centre rail is minus most of the time, outer rails are plus most of the time.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline RayF  
#17 Posted : 22 July 2014 17:34:27(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,722
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Shorting to the 3rd rail/pukos is probably even more drastic.
Shorting to the chassis/the outer rails should be more drastic than shorting to the centre rail. Decoder output is minus, centre rail is minus most of the time, outer rails are plus most of the time.



I think it would depend on the circuit. There might be protection on the decoder output against short circuits to ground, but the output transistors might not like having the outputs connected to the full rail voltage.

It would be hard to know for sure without a look at the circuit diagram.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline biedmatt  
#18 Posted : 22 July 2014 20:03:12(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Shorting to the 3rd rail/pukos is probably even more drastic.
Shorting to the chassis/the outer rails should be more drastic than shorting to the centre rail. Decoder output is minus, centre rail is minus most of the time, outer rails are plus most of the time.



With my ECoS 50200 the digital multi meter says there is less than 1VDC between the third rail and ground and 17VAC between third rail and ground.The decoder outputs are rectified and the polarity is negative for each output and positive for decoder output return (ESU blue wire). When you wire a function between decoder output (-) and (loko) ground (AC signal or alternating + and -), you get a half wave rectified signal-potential across the output only when ground is positive in the AC sine wave, or 50% of the time. The other 50% of the time when ground is at negative in the AC sine wave there is no potential across the output as it and ground are both negative at that moment. That is why the lamps flash when wired to ground and not output return.

As to fuses, they will neither react fast enough nor when needed. The specs for fuses typically allow a 200% variance in the fusing window. Much too high a value and much to slow to react and protect the decoder.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline H0  
#19 Posted : 22 July 2014 22:01:07(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,847
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I think it would depend on the circuit. There might be protection on the decoder output against short circuits to ground, but the output transistors might not like having the outputs connected to the full rail voltage.
Both centre rail and outer rail have the full rail voltage - polarity changes 5000+ times a second.
How do you define "ground"? Common return (orange wire with Märklin colour scheme) is plus. Difference between "orange wire" and full track voltage are just rectifier diodes.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline H0  
#20 Posted : 22 July 2014 22:03:48(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,847
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
When you wire a function between decoder output (-) and (loko) ground (AC signal or alternating + and -), you get a half wave rectified signal-potential across the output only when ground is positive in the AC sine wave, or 50% of the time.
No sine wave with digital operation. Make this about 75 % with MM protocol. With DCC it depends on the implementation.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline biedmatt  
#21 Posted : 22 July 2014 22:30:12(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
When you wire a function between decoder output (-) and (loko) ground (AC signal or alternating + and -), you get a half wave rectified signal-potential across the output only when ground is positive in the AC sine wave, or 50% of the time.
No sine wave with digital operation. Make this about 75 % with MM protocol. With DCC it depends on the implementation.



We no longer have an o-scope, so I figured it was a sine wave. Must be a square wave then, but still an alternating circuit with polarities switching back and forth positive and negative. Otherwise, the DMM would not show 17VAC. It would be interesting to put an o-scope between the decoder output and loko ground to see it visually.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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