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Offline bo  
#1 Posted : 29 March 2013 23:37:46(UTC)
bo

Ukraine   
Joined: 29/03/2013(UTC)
Posts: 35
Location: Ukraine
Hi to all from Ukraine, Kiev city! Smile

First of all I am glad to join you guys!

I am not a beginner of a marklin digital system and I know some hints of using it, but still learning some new features that produced by Marklin.
Since I decided to build new fully digital layout two month ago (3x3m), I started to learn braking system - here I got confused and I need some help from you guys.

Someone on this forum said that 72441(2) and 76xxx - got confused. Today I wired BM 72442 and 76394 and it seems to me works good, BUT could someone tell me please how to setup braking distance? I have 3 isolated sections: first section is 188mm, second section is about 540mm, and 3rd section is 360mm.
As far as I know, braking distance depends on speed of loco. Therefore, where should I install the signal before or after platform (one direction)? I tried to configure max/min delay - no reaction.

My goal is: smooth stop at the end (exact point) of 3 standing in a row platforms.

Your help much appreciated!

P.S. Here is some photos of my new layout RollEyes



Thanks in advance!


Boris

bo attached the following image(s):
WP_20130328_003.jpg
WP_20130328_004.jpg
Offline kweekalot  
#2 Posted : 30 March 2013 09:36:02(UTC)
kweekalot

Netherlands   
Joined: 27/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,440
Location: Holland
Hi Boris,

Welcome to the forum ! ThumpUp
I'm a analog man so I can't help you, but usually it does not take long here before someone offers help.

Marco
Offline bo  
#3 Posted : 30 March 2013 19:43:19(UTC)
bo

Ukraine   
Joined: 29/03/2013(UTC)
Posts: 35
Location: Ukraine
Hi, Marco!

Anyway thanks for reply!


Back to my topic: I have tried to disconnect the signal and use only brake module, then I tried to adjust brake delay on the loco, but it make no difference. Loco stops at the same point (even with different speed).

Please someone help!!) my brain is melting!)

tnx!
Offline Nielsenr  
#4 Posted : 31 March 2013 22:52:59(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Welcome to the forum Boris!!

A question for you ... are you using a CS2??

Robert
Offline bo  
#5 Posted : 31 March 2013 23:12:32(UTC)
bo

Ukraine   
Joined: 29/03/2013(UTC)
Posts: 35
Location: Ukraine
Hi Robert!

Thank you!

Yes, I am using CS2 60213, but unfortunately I can't remember my firmware (will check tomorrow), only I know now, that I downloaded it at the end of 2012.


Offline Nielsenr  
#6 Posted : 01 April 2013 08:19:51(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Boris,

Are you changing the braking value on the initial loco screen or are you changing it via CVs?? If I remember correctly, the braking value on the initial loco page uses the CS2 software to emulate braking where the CV changes the value within the decoder. Also if I remember correctly, the braking function is turned on when the symbol for the braking function is not highlighted on the CS2 screen and is turned off when it is highlighted. Sort of the opposite of what you would expect.

I hope I have made myself clear, if not, let me know ...

Robert
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Nielsenr
bo
Offline bo  
#7 Posted : 01 April 2013 09:21:54(UTC)
bo

Ukraine   
Joined: 29/03/2013(UTC)
Posts: 35
Location: Ukraine
Robert,

I understand what are you talking about. To be honest, I was a little worried as I could brake my decoder on loco while playing with CV parameters, so tried to change just braking delay parameters on loco settings page (if necessary, please see attached file). Also I know, if I make any changes to braking/acceleration delay values - CS2 telling me that "Nothing changed" while I pressing "upload it on my logo" button. Actually I checked and nothing happened, even if I put max/min values for braking delay (all my locos equipped with MFX decoders).

PS even if i something wired incorrect, braking module still works good ("trigger" sound from module, loco stops on red signal in braking area with braking sound) except braking distanceCursing. Today I will try to do once again, maybe something may change and let you knowSmile.


On the other hand, how to get locomotive to proceed slowly on "yellow/green" signal. As I understand, brake module supporting this feature also?


Thanks in advance!


Boris
bo attached the following image(s):
loco settings page.png
Offline bo  
#8 Posted : 01 April 2013 23:03:52(UTC)
bo

Ukraine   
Joined: 29/03/2013(UTC)
Posts: 35
Location: Ukraine
Robert,

I went on my own risk and changed CV parameters of loco (15 by default). I can tell you that it seems to me workingThumpUp - many thanks for advice!!!ThumpUp.
Could you please tell me about 3rd section (secure): when pickup shoe touching 3rd section, locomotive just switching off and make some minor "triggering" sound, as it didn't have enough power supply. This only happening when "red" signal of semaphore and when I switch to "green" signal - locomotive continue moving on.

My guess, that behavior of my loco is normal as 2nd section (braking area) is not long enough for full stop BEFORE 3rd section. So I have to play with parameters.
Only I would like to know few things, if this is normal situation, when locomotive is switching off in 3rd secure section? And how to get locomotive to proceed slowly on "yellow/green" signal. As I understand, brake module supporting this feature also?

I hope I have made myself clearSmile

Please feel free if you have any questions.

Your help is much appreciated!ThumpUp


Boris
Offline Nielsenr  
#9 Posted : 02 April 2013 08:23:14(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Boris,

Good to hear you got the courage up to try and adjust the CVs. I too was nervous the first time I adjusted them. I usually will set the braking value to 0 on the initial loco screen so the CS2 software will play no part in the braking and just let the decoder do it all. I assume the third section you are talking about is the "stop" section of track in the braking area. This section of track has the power removed to insure the train stops. So it is normal for your train to shut down completely in this area. The trick is to adjust the braking value to stop before it reaches this area.

I am not aware of the braking module allowing a train to run at a slower speed in a "yellow" signal area. However, you can adjust the CV for acceleration so that it starts up slowly from a dead stop as it moves towards a set speed. You can try adjusting the acceleration and see how the loco responds.

Good luck with your layout!!

Robert
Offline bo  
#10 Posted : 02 April 2013 08:47:21(UTC)
bo

Ukraine   
Joined: 29/03/2013(UTC)
Posts: 35
Location: Ukraine
Robert,

thanks once again for 0 value advice!

Well, I will try to find out how I can make loco to proceed slowly on yellow/green light. If I can, I will be sure to tellWink


Boris
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by bo
Offline Lars Westerlind  
#11 Posted : 24 April 2013 21:52:21(UTC)
Lars Westerlind


Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 2,379
Location: Lindome, Sweden
Originally Posted by: bo Go to Quoted Post
Robert,

thanks once again for 0 value advice!

Well, I will try to find out how I can make loco to proceed slowly on yellow/green light. If I can, I will be sure to tellWink


Boris


Hi,
well, you can't. The Märklin braking module, originally from Lenz, is based on applying a DC signal to track, with negative in the middle. Thist is interpreted by decoder to perform a brake. The decoder is under full power at this braking section, but cannot be reached by any digital commands (like putting light on or off). There does not exist any such signal as "limitited speed".

In the last section the power is more or less absent, which causes any lok stop, also analog locos and locos wich don't understand te brake signal. It normally has a very tiny current available, as very old decoders may othervise loose memory. But it's not enough to allow lights be lit.

In DCC culture there exist other principles. Quite normal is to have "brake signal modules", that send brake signals with public address, that is, to anyone. The allows also for sending speed commands to anyone with low values.

Cheers,
Lars
Offline bo  
#12 Posted : 28 April 2013 01:34:42(UTC)
bo

Ukraine   
Joined: 29/03/2013(UTC)
Posts: 35
Location: Ukraine
Hi, Lars

thanks for explanation!

Yes, you are right. As far as I tested, braking module can't do this, BUT I have tried iTrain - best software which make my life easier. The only thing that I am bored of is setting up my layout with signals, loco setting etc.


Boris
Offline bo  
#13 Posted : 24 May 2013 01:02:24(UTC)
bo

Ukraine   
Joined: 29/03/2013(UTC)
Posts: 35
Location: Ukraine
Hi to all of you!ThumpUp

Maybe some of you know how to make braking module 72442 work in both ways in block?
Instruction says nothing. ThumbDown. Probably it is impossibleHuh.


Thanks!


Boris
Offline river6109  
#14 Posted : 24 May 2013 01:46:09(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,739
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: bo Go to Quoted Post
Hi to all of you!ThumpUp

Maybe some of you know how to make braking module 72442 work in both ways in block?
Instruction says nothing. ThumbDown. Probably it is impossibleHuh.


Thanks!


Boris


Boris,

I would say the latter would apply, a signal braking module is designed whereas a train comes from one direction, activates the transition section and than enters the braking section and last, in case the loco overruns the braking sections, the stop section. coming in from the other side, e.g. if the signal is red, the braking section and the live section of track would cause a short when a loco passes over these two sections. I don't know what would happen if you put another transition section there instead of the stopping section but than you come to the other side from a braking section to a transition section.

ESU decoders have a CV setting whereas you can program the distance for a loco to stop, regardless of its speed which is handy when you have a smaller layout, your ice train could come at a fast speed into the braking section but will always stop in front of the signal but, there is always a "but", I run my inner circle and the branch line with switching tracks and these switching tracks operate the running of my locos automatically and the most important phase of this operation is the loco stops at the same spot and therefore will activate the switching track (next signals braking module, turnouts) before the loco comes to a halt, if it doesn't reach the switching track or stays on top of it, the next loco either will not receive its next command or the signal braking modules can't activate its command. e.g. to set the signal to red again because the switching track with its loco wiper sitting on top of it, still activating a pulse hence no other command can be activated and what would happen, the braking section for the next loco hasn't been allowed to activate the red signal and it stead of stopping in this section the loco continues to run through and the same time by doing so is activating the next track for the loco to proceed.
to cut the story short, everything was running fine, turned the whole system off, came back about 3 days later and turned everything on again (it resets the previous settings automatically) but what I found the distance for the loco to stop had changed and this is a great concern to me. whether or not the loco has to be run in before it reaches the same distance again, I don't know but it is a dilemma to reset all the locos again to achieve the correct distance.
Have to write to the ESU forum and find out what's going on.
the latest ESU decoders have this feature (distance only) whereas before some of my locos being set for braking distance the locos varied from time to time and it wasn't 100 % reliable especially when you run 20 trains or so.



John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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