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Offline DumbGuy  
#1 Posted : 31 January 2012 19:09:21(UTC)
DumbGuy

United States   
Joined: 25/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 194
Location: Tennessee, USA
I recently purchased a #60653 Mobile Station 2 that I’m currently test-operating with power from an old blue-case #6153 30 VA analog transformer. (I’ve connected the transformer’s brown and yellow wires to a plug compatible with the #60113 “ugly box”). Everything works fine. The set-up runs at least four FX digital locos at the same time & reverses them nicely.

BUT I’m leery of continuing to operate a digital system with an old blue-case analog transformer that many folks here say will eventually fry something expensive. Following are my questions . . . . .

1 – Will a #6001 42 VA transformer work well & be safer with an MS2?
2 – Does polarity matter when I change the #6001 end-wires to a #60113-compatible plug?
3 – Will the larger 42 VA capacity let me run more “stuff” at the same time?
4 – Or should I just spring for a “correct” #60055 60 VA transformer?
5 - Am I taking too much risk even test-operating with a blue-case analog transformer?

Thanks & any additional advice is appreciated. You guys are good!! DG
Long-time analog user, collector & tinkerer.
Discovered digital & began conversion a few years ago.
C-Track, CS2 Carpetbahn built, taken-down, rebuilt, etc.
Username reflects how much I still have to learn.
Offline mrmarklin  
#2 Posted : 31 January 2012 22:02:59(UTC)
mrmarklin

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Joined: 27/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 944
Location: Burney, CA
Originally Posted by: DumbGuy Go to Quoted Post
I recently purchased a #60653 Mobile Station 2 that I’m currently test-operating with power from an old blue-case #6153 30 VA analog transformer. (I’ve connected the transformer’s brown and yellow wires to a plug compatible with the #60113 “ugly box”). Everything works fine. The set-up runs at least four FX digital locos at the same time & reverses them nicely.

BUT I’m leery of continuing to operate a digital system with an old blue-case analog transformer that many folks here say will eventually fry something expensive. Following are my questions . . . . .

1 – Will a #6001 42 VA transformer work well with an MS2?
2 – Does polarity matter when I change the #6001 end-wires to a #60113-compatible plug?
3 – Will the larger 42 VA capacity let me run more “stuff” at the same time?
4 – Or should I just spring for a “correct” #60055 60 VA transformer?
5 - Am I taking too much risk even test-operating with a blue-case analog transformer?

Thanks & any additional advice is appreciated. You guys are good!! DG



Considering that the max output of MS is 3amps (48VA) you should get the 60055. The 6001 gives < 3amp output with no reserve, so you are underutilizing the MS2 considering that the MS uses some current. Output of the 60055 is 5amps (60VA).
Blue case Xformers have even less output than 6001, I believe.
From the People's Republik of Kalifornia
Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 01 February 2012 00:12:00(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
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Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: DumbGuy Go to Quoted Post
5 - Am I taking too much risk even test-operating with a blue-case analog transformer?
Blue transformers may have a higher output voltage and can reduce the lifetime of your digital controller and of light bulbs and decoders inside your locos.
Can you measure the output voltage of your transformer?
MS2 with current software can display track voltage and track current. With four locos this could well be 1 A or less.

If the transformer is overloaded, it will simply switch off. If it works fine for a long time, then it's not overloaded.
Maximum output of an MS2 is about 40 VA (1,9 A), but a transformer with 42 VA will be insufficient and will switch off when you take the MS2 constantly to the limit.
If you buy new, better go for 60 VA - or the new power supply.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline DumbGuy  
#4 Posted : 01 February 2012 12:03:31(UTC)
DumbGuy

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Joined: 25/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 194
Location: Tennessee, USA
mrmarklin & HO -- Thanks. Your recommendations for the #60055 confirm what my newbie head expected. It appears that a #6001 won’t give significant capacity improvement over my old blue-case #6153 Xformer. FWIW, measured voltage from its sockets are: Red = 0-16V; Yellow = 16V; Pulse = 26V. I believe its max output is 2 amps. (I have two others that are 1-2V higher across each socket. I don’t use them.)

The highest load I’ve placed on my simple 8-foot test track oval with the old transformer has been three FX locos pulling a total of ten lighted coaches (20 bulbs). Surprisingly, I’ve not noticed degraded performance, nor experienced a transformer overload shut-down. Still leery, but may be temporarily OK. I’ll start shopping for a more future-proof 60055.

Related = I’m very obviously still just learning, and have not figured out how to check track voltage and current through the MS2 (bought new a month ago). From its “Information” Menu, it displays: SW version 1.3; HW version 2.0; LDB V 009 (10/2). Is this up-to-date software? Finally, I don’t know what “LDB” means. Thanks again -- DG
Long-time analog user, collector & tinkerer.
Discovered digital & began conversion a few years ago.
C-Track, CS2 Carpetbahn built, taken-down, rebuilt, etc.
Username reflects how much I still have to learn.
Offline BrandonVA  
#5 Posted : 01 February 2012 14:15:13(UTC)
BrandonVA

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Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
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Location: VA
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: DumbGuy Go to Quoted Post
5 - Am I taking too much risk even test-operating with a blue-case analog transformer?
Blue transformers may have a higher output voltage and can reduce the lifetime of your digital controller and of light bulbs and decoders inside your locos.


Would this also apply to running digital locos in analog mode...such a straight from a 6627 (30va) transformer?
Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 01 February 2012 17:54:44(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
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Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: BrandonVA Go to Quoted Post
Would this also apply to running digital locos in analog mode...such a straight from a 6627 (30va) transformer?
With respect to running a loco, it depends on a) the voltage of the transformer and b) the speed setting on the transformer.
If you run the loco full speed with 19 V from a blue transformer (instead of 17 V from a grey transformer), then it'll be faster, but motor, light bulbs, and maybe even decoder won't last as long as with 17 V. No difference if you keep voltage below 16 V.
If you reverse direction the decoder could die within seconds (some blue transformers have reversing voltages of 30+ V while the grey ones should have 25 V).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline BrandonVA  
#7 Posted : 02 February 2012 15:09:07(UTC)
BrandonVA

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Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Wow.

So, an old blue one in my case is a 6627 (30va transformer). Is there any reference for the reverse voltages on these?

When you say "grey", are you referring to a grey analog transformer such as 6646 (32VA analog)?
Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 02 February 2012 15:41:39(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,466
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: BrandonVA Go to Quoted Post
Is there any reference for the reverse voltages on these?
The voltages vary very much, so you must measure your transformer - you cannot rely on the measurements of someone else with a transformer with the same ref. number.
Grey transformers are 6646 and 6647 - the only types allowed by Märklin for analogue operation of modern digital locos.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline BrandonVA  
#9 Posted : 02 February 2012 15:49:26(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Ok, I understand. If I didn't have so many analog locos, I may go digital...but as it is, looks like I will be ordering some "grey" transformers =/

Thanks for the info, and sorry to slightly derail the topic.
Offline DumbGuy  
#10 Posted : 04 February 2012 18:31:16(UTC)
DumbGuy

United States   
Joined: 25/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 194
Location: Tennessee, USA
I’m very obviously still just learning, and have not figured out how to check track voltage and current through the MS2 (bought new a month ago). From its “Information” Menu, it displays: SW version 1.3; HW version 2.0; LDB V 009 (10/2). Is this up-to-date software? Finally, I don’t know what “LDB” means. Thanks again -- DG
Long-time analog user, collector & tinkerer.
Discovered digital & began conversion a few years ago.
C-Track, CS2 Carpetbahn built, taken-down, rebuilt, etc.
Username reflects how much I still have to learn.
Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 04 February 2012 19:57:23(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,466
Location: DE-NW
Current software is 1.81.
IIRC it takes software 1.5 to check track voltage and current.

LDB: loco database (with Märklin non-mfx locos that can be created from database)
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline reindeerdad  
#12 Posted : 08 February 2012 21:17:31(UTC)
reindeerdad

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Joined: 14/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 26
Location: Davenport, FL
I just received a 60653 MS2, plus 60113 interface and I am in the process of testing its capabilities. I have a 60055 transformer on order, but it has not yet arrived. As such, I have been using a 66185 (120v 18VA 20volts) transformer from a starter set to temporarily power my test layout. The output voltage of the 66185 is approximately 20.4 volts, as measured by the MS2. The transformer is powering two locos, and 3 digitally controlled turnouts. Should I be concerned about the higher (than the 60055) output voltage from the 66185 for a few weeks until my 60055 arrives, or is the voltage in an acceptable range? Thanks...
Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 08 February 2012 21:59:18(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,466
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: reindeerdad Go to Quoted Post
Should I be concerned about the higher (than the 60055) output voltage from the
66185
The 60055 will give you a track voltage of about 22 V - so the 20 V from your current "door stopper" are no problem at all.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline reindeerdad  
#14 Posted : 08 February 2012 22:06:21(UTC)
reindeerdad

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Location: Davenport, FL
Tom...Thanks for the quick answer! In looking at the specifications on one of the dealer sites for the 60055, it stated that the output was 16vac...so I made an assumption that I was "over volting" the layout with my 66185....Dan
Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 08 February 2012 22:51:39(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,466
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: reindeerdad Go to Quoted Post
In looking at the specifications on one of the dealer sites for the 60055, it stated that the output was 16vac...
Dan, the output is 16 V AC. But the rectifier inside the track connection box converts it to 23 V DC - simply because 16 V AC is a sine wave with a peak voltage of 23 V.
"16 V AC" is the effective voltage and means "AC as effective as 16 V DC" - to get this from a sine wave, the peak voltage is 41 % higher (or square root of 2 to be exactly).
The DC coming out of the rectifier is close to the peak voltage, going down a bit when the load is high.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline reindeerdad  
#16 Posted : 08 February 2012 23:58:53(UTC)
reindeerdad

United States   
Joined: 14/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 26
Location: Davenport, FL
Tom..Thanks for the detailed description of what goes on inside the connection box. As a newbie to Marklin, it is quite interesting to me how things work in the Marklin world. Your information led me back to looking at the 66185 starter set transformer, and I discovered that the output specified is 20.8 volts DC, not AC. I did not disassemble the track connection C track section that came with the starter set, but it looks like it was probably not designed to work like the 60113 track connection box (no rectifier.?.). Dan
Offline GSRR  
#17 Posted : 27 November 2012 01:27:09(UTC)
GSRR

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Location: USA
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: reindeerdad Go to Quoted Post
In looking at the specifications on one of the dealer sites for the 60055, it stated that the output was 16vac...
Dan, the output is 16 V AC. But the rectifier inside the track connection box converts it to 23 V DC - simply because 16 V AC is a sine wave with a peak voltage of 23 V.
"16 V AC" is the effective voltage and means "AC as effective as 16 V DC" - to get this from a sine wave, the peak voltage is 41 % higher (or square root of 2 to be exactly).
The DC coming out of the rectifier is close to the peak voltage, going down a bit when the load is high.




Tom,

by the track connection box you refer to the 60113?


The 60052 / 55 comes with jack plug style connector that fits the Marklin 24088 adapter track and the 60113 adapter box.

Does the 24088 also convert to 23V DC?


reference: #12 Posted : 08 August

https://www.marklin-user...r-Box-60115-and-MS2.aspx




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Offline H0  
#18 Posted : 27 November 2012 07:46:34(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,466
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: GSRR Go to Quoted Post
Does the 24088 also convert to 23V DC?
Yes (and nothing else: the 24088 and 60115 only contain a bridge rectifier and a capacitor).

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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