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Offline abisel  
#1 Posted : 06 January 2013 04:16:56(UTC)
abisel

United States   
Joined: 07/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 139
Location: St. Charles, Missouri
Has anyone tried to put together a Von Ryan Express train? I am thinking of doing so.

What locomotive?
What freight cars?
What coach car?

Please advise.

I found a link with some excellent images. http://bluscreens.com/tag/von-ryans-express/
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage
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Offline steventrain  
#2 Posted : 06 January 2013 10:30:28(UTC)
steventrain

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Location: United Kingdom
Cat number 4550 Marklin 1960s.

UserPostedImage
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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Offline steventrain  
#3 Posted : 06 January 2013 10:39:43(UTC)
steventrain

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Location: United Kingdom
I think the loco was 740 or 741 class 2-8-0.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline NS1200  
#4 Posted : 06 January 2013 13:00:48(UTC)
NS1200

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Posts: 3,443
Always tricky to copy trains from war movies because most of the time the trains used in the movies do not represent their true wartime prototypes.
The Maerklin 4550 shown above is not a WW2 railwaycar.
If movie directors need a train in a film,they usually accept the material available,put some signs on it to reflect the era,and that is it.
In fact they do the same with other wartime vehicles,such as tanks.

The German planes as shown on one of the pictures you submitted are Messerschmitt Bf 108 Taifun planes,never used in an attack role during WW2.
The Bf 108 was used as a liaison/support aircraft only.
Next in line was the Bf 109,a very serious fighterplane indeed.

Ever seen Battle of the bulge,with advancing German troops using American M60 tanks,a big joke really,the M60 tanks were in NATO service as from 1961,the battle of the bulge (Ardennes) was in 1944.
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline abisel  
#5 Posted : 06 January 2013 17:29:29(UTC)
abisel

United States   
Joined: 07/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 139
Location: St. Charles, Missouri
Steventrain and NS1200,

Thanks for replies and information.

I agree completely about the authenticity of equipment used to make war movies. They just use what is at hand with a splash of paint and such. Sometimes obviously not the correct equipment has you stated in the Battle of the Bulge movie. Another example is Steve McQueens motorcyle ride in the Great Escape. He loved to ride motorcyles but in the movie it was a Triumph painted to look period correct, but it wasn't.

The 4550 appears to be the freight car of choice as it "looks" like the cars in the pictures.

I did some more searching around and the locomotive looks to be an FS (Ferrovie della Stato = Italian State Railways) Class 735 2-8-0 built by ALCO in New York, USA. Marklin's current production does not have a locomotive like this.
UserPostedImage

Still looking for info on the coach car.

Cheers,
Offline NS1200  
#6 Posted : 06 January 2013 17:42:28(UTC)
NS1200

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Posts: 3,443
It looks like they have used two different locomotives in the movie.
In the top picture you submitted it seems to have smoke deflectors old German DRG style.
In another picture in your link to the movie it looks like a Franco Costi converted loco with the smokestack halfway the boiler!
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline mike c  
#7 Posted : 06 January 2013 18:57:47(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,865
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
Always tricky to copy trains from war movies because most of the time the trains used in the movies do not represent their true wartime prototypes.
The Maerklin 4550 shown above is not a WW2 railwaycar.
If movie directors need a train in a film,they usually accept the material available,put some signs on it to reflect the era,and that is it.
In fact they do the same with other wartime vehicles,such as tanks.

Ever seen Battle of the bulge,with advancing German troops using American M60 tanks,a big joke really,the M60 tanks were in NATO service as from 1961,the battle of the bulge (Ardennes) was in 1944.


I always thought that the so-called German tanks in "Battle of the Bulge" were M48s and not M60s.

There are many movies where Allied vehicles have been substituted for German ones or other changes that are apparent to those who know.
Remember Goering's train in the 1969 epic "Battle of Britain" with the 1950 Schuerzenwagen?

While we are talking war films, does anybody remember the name of that movie with a Tiger tank chasing a P-40 Warhawk all over North Africa?

Back to Von Ryan's Express. The freight cars may be available from ACME or Brawa. I also remember that Maerklin did at some point issue the 4550 in silver with older markings. The car at the end of the train might also be available from ACME, Rivarossi or other Italian company, but I guess a repainted 4036 might do in a pinch.

Having travelled on the rail routes from Italy to Switzerland (Simplon and Gotthard), the movie's depiction of the border in the middle of the alps is also a little suspect, but then again, who cares, it is Hollywood. Is there a line like that somewhere in the alps?

Regards

Mike C
Offline NS1200  
#8 Posted : 06 January 2013 19:27:24(UTC)
NS1200

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Posts: 3,443
Mike,

I think you are correct about the M48 tanks,in any event that one was also in use after WW2.

Schuerzenwagen in "Battle of Britain": as a matter of fact these coaches were in use during WW2.
If i do well recall,Maerklin issued a couple with the eagle emblem on the sides.
Check 43201 for example.

Tiger tank versus P-40: Title was "Death Race" also known as "State of division",made for TV in 1973.
From internet i understand also this movie was full of historical mistakes,wrong markings,wrong weapons,etc.
Here a P-40 found in the desert recently:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQepSizX26o

Frank Sinatra: something of an icon,but was he a war hero?

Paul.
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline Goofy  
#9 Posted : 06 January 2013 19:28:12(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,986
Check this wagon set for italia under era 2 time:
www.brawa.de and check after 48560
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Tom Jessop  
#10 Posted : 06 January 2013 23:28:52(UTC)
Tom Jessop

Australia   
Joined: 14/12/2002(UTC)
Posts: 800
Location: Newcastle NSW Australia
The part of Von Ryan's Express where the train is attacked while passing thru the canyon was shot in Spain. Click on the link below which has some awesome footage. There is a good urban history/search site called 28DL which has about 34 pages with comments about this canyon. Mainly UK stuff but a good look around Europe in the International section down the bottom of the index page.





Spain:



28DL: http://www.28dayslater.c...ariest-path-in-the-world


Regards
Tom in Oz


Offline abisel  
#11 Posted : 07 January 2013 01:32:55(UTC)
abisel

United States   
Joined: 07/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 139
Location: St. Charles, Missouri
Found another picture of the coach car. It may help to identify it.

UserPostedImage
Offline borntman  
#12 Posted : 10 January 2013 14:35:42(UTC)
borntman

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Joined: 24/01/2010(UTC)
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Location: Huntington Station NY
Well about the locomotive. To think a bit outside the box and use what Hollywood would probably have intended the loco to be you can use a br 52 in wartime colors. Steventrain provided an acceptable box car to be painted up. I'm not sure on the coach though.
Offline NS1200  
#13 Posted : 10 January 2013 15:33:28(UTC)
NS1200

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Posts: 3,443
Originally Posted by: borntman Go to Quoted Post
Well about the locomotive. To think a bit outside the box and use what Hollywood would probably have intended the loco to be you can use a br 52 in wartime colors. Steventrain provided an acceptable box car to be painted up. I'm not sure on the coach though.


Apart from the fact that the FS boxcar shown is a post WW2 car.
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline borntman  
#14 Posted : 10 January 2013 16:20:23(UTC)
borntman

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Posts: 120
Location: Huntington Station NY
True but the cars in the movie were probably post ww2 as well.
Offline NS1200  
#15 Posted : 10 January 2013 16:29:40(UTC)
NS1200

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Posts: 3,443
Originally Posted by: borntman Go to Quoted Post
True but the cars in the movie were probably post ww2 as well.


Yeah,that is what i mean.
As said earlier in this topic,most war movies are incorrect when it comes to using the correct equipment and material.
Either you do not care and imitate the movie regardless or,like me,get annoyed by the lack of genuine interest by movie makers.
True,it becomes extremely difficult to find original WW2 equipment,especially when it has to be self propelled.
The Battle of Britain movie was made in 1970,already at that time it was hard to find proper airoplanes.
The Messerschmitt 109 planes in the movie were in fact post war Spanish machines made under licence.

Edited by user 12 January 2013 09:37:37(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline RayF  
#16 Posted : 10 January 2013 16:46:22(UTC)
RayF

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Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: borntman Go to Quoted Post
True but the cars in the movie were probably post ww2 as well.


Yeah,that is what i mean.
As said earlier in this topic,most war movies are incorrect when it comes to using the correct equipment and material.
Either you do not care and imitate the movie regardless or,like me,get annoyed by the lack of genuine interest by movie makers.
True,it becomes extremely difficult to find original WW2 equipment,especially when it has to be self propelled.
The Battle of Britain movie was made in 1970,already at that time it was hard to find proper airoplanes.
The Messerschmidt 109 planes in the movie were in fact post war Spanish machines made under licence.


Ironically, the Spanish Me109's used in the film are powered by Rolls Royce Merlin engines!
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline NS1200  
#17 Posted : 10 January 2013 20:11:49(UTC)
NS1200

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Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Ray,
Rolls Royce Merlins: correct!
If i do well recall the Heinkel He-111 bombers were borrowed from the Spanish airforce as well.
Still,i found it a very impressive movie,i saw it at least 5 times.
And you know what: the then still very beautiful Susanna York made the greatest impression on me!
I never forgave her getting close to Christopher-The Sound of Music- Plummer in his role as Spitfire flyer.

The most famous Dutch made war movie to date is still "Soldaat van Oranje" (Soldier of Orange) by Paul Verhoeven,who later became well know in the USA with films like Total Recall.
The movie is not bad but at some stage Verhoeven used a cardboard German tank doing its tour in the streets of The Hague,what more of a deception can you think of?
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline mike c  
#18 Posted : 10 January 2013 21:15:46(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,865
Location: Montreal, QC
The passenger coach from the Von Ryan's Express does look like a 1927-1937 Italian coach. The only thing that I am not sure about is the lack of gangway connector and the balcony at the end of the coach. I would expect to find either the enclosed vestibule with gangway or open vestibule with balcony and railings.

Regards

Mike C
Offline abisel  
#19 Posted : 11 January 2013 04:35:13(UTC)
abisel

United States   
Joined: 07/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 139
Location: St. Charles, Missouri
I like all the conversation this topic has started.

I'll look at the BR52 loco. Other manufactures besides Marklin may have the correct FS 735 in their production. The closest thing Marklin has in production might be the 36240 which is a 2-6-0 and not a 2-8-0, but it does have the smoke deflectors. Another could be 37556, an FS 0-8-0 and maybe it could be modified to look like the loco in the movie by adding a truck to the front and the smoke deflectors.

I read somewhere that the balcony on the coach car was added for the movie. Just so they could get shots like in the picture and of course the final scenes of the movie. So if I find the right coach car (look at the roof of the car in the first pictures), I would have to add the balcony.

Another great train movie to consider was The Train with Burt Lancaster.

And then a most excellent German war movie (no trains) would have to be Das Boot.
Offline abisel  
#20 Posted : 11 January 2013 04:46:31(UTC)
abisel

United States   
Joined: 07/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 139
Location: St. Charles, Missouri
Speaking of Me109's. Back in 2007 while on business in England, I stopped by the Duxford Air Musuem and they have this 109 from the Battle of Britain that crashed in a field. They set it up as is in a diorama. Very impressive.
[img]UserPostedImage[/img]
[img]UserPostedImage[/img]

Edited by user 11 January 2013 20:18:58(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline NS1200  
#21 Posted : 11 January 2013 19:31:14(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Originally Posted by: abisel Go to Quoted Post
Speaking of Me109's. Back in 2007 while on business in England, I stopped by the Duxford Air Musuem and they have this 109 from the Battle of Britain that crashed in a field. They set it up as is in a diorama. Very impressive.


Thanks for the picture.
That is an Bf-109E (E for Emil).
Note the fearsome canon in the propellerhub.
Four years later the Bf-109G (G for Gustav) was giving B-17 Flying Fortresses a hard time over Germany.
A total of over 30,000 were built.
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline NS1200  
#22 Posted : 11 January 2013 19:54:08(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Abisel,

This one is for you:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=khxx3sCVhtE

Cheers,
Paul.
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline NS1200  
#23 Posted : 31 January 2013 21:23:30(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Tried to watch the movie "Red Tails" several times.
Story is about dark skinned USAAF pilots doing their tour of duty in Europe.
The P-40 fighters look pretty convincing,so do the B-17 bombers.
However,then i noticed that George "Star Wars" Lucas is the director.
There is a scene in the beginning where a German series 52 Kriegslokomotive is being shot to pieces,rather spectacular but obviously 100 percent computer animated.
I came to realise that about the whole movie is computer animated.
Is that good or bad?
At least you do not have to search for original fighting equipment,you simple create it on the PC!
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline cookee_nz  
#24 Posted : 31 January 2013 21:42:22(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,946
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
Tried to watch the movie "Red Tails" several times.
Story is about dark skinned USAAF pilots doing their tour of duty in Europe.
The P-40 fighters look pretty convincing,so do the B-17 bombers.
However,then i noticed that George "Star Wars" Lucas is the director.
There is a scene in the beginning where a German series 52 Kriegslokomotive is being shot to pieces,rather spectacular but obviously 100 percent computer animated.
I came to realise that about the whole movie is computer animated.
Is that good or bad?
At least you do not have to search for original fighting equipment,you simple create it on the PC!


I am of two minds about CGI/CGA.

Slightly OT but yesterday, I happened to see Thomas and friends playing in the morning kids TV slot, and I'm usually a sucker for Thomas.

So I settled to watch during breakfast and it took only a very few minutes for me to realise it was all animated. Admittedly, very well done, but there were some un-nerving things such as what appeared to be a very light fog or mist across the entire image, and did not appear to be actually simulating a mist or fog because there was still steam etc.

Also, the Loco's had this peculiar way of moving ever so slightly, almost shimmering, or wavering. It put me right off because for one thing I knew I was not watching an actual train of any sort. I wondered whether it would go the way of Chuggington. At least with Chuggington you know it's animated.

Just watching the wheels and con-rods going round it just seemed like it was only 98% there. Hard to put my finger on.

I felt I had to actually watch an original Ringo Starr-narrated one to set the image right in my head. Thankfully I have several DVD's and some downloads so a Thomas-fix is never far away. ThumpUp

Of course the children, whom the show is aimed at would not tell the difference and if it gets a bigger audience I guess that's a good thing, and clearly cheaper for them to produce.

But on the other hand, yes it enables creation of scenes that would otherwise be prohibitively expensive if not impossible to create.

Expect to see more and more of it.
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline hgk  
#25 Posted : 01 February 2013 07:24:27(UTC)
hgk


Joined: 10/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 455
Location: Pacific Ocean

Abisel,
The third post down on this page talks about the train used.
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/121465.aspx
Good luck with the project.
-George
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Offline steventrain  
#26 Posted : 01 February 2013 10:03:52(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,594
Location: United Kingdom
Marklin 2013 new item will bring wagons pack 47873.

Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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Offline Edvan  
#27 Posted : 03 January 2015 16:23:14(UTC)
Edvan

Belgium   
Joined: 03/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1
Location: Koksijde
Hi,

I just registered on the forum. For your search I found a picture of the FS Gr 735 used in the movie as the locomotive of the escapees. It's a model in HO made by the firm TecnoTren. You can find the picture on http://www.marklinfan.co...topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2192.
The model is no more available I believe. The other loco is now made by the Italian firm Os.Kar and is a FS 743.
Had the same idea to represent the train in HO scale but lost it somewhat while I couldn't find the right loc. Maybe with some help in future times.

Kind regards

Ed

Offline kiwiAlan  
#28 Posted : 03 January 2015 16:48:57(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post

The Battle of Britain movie was made in 1970,already at that time it was hard to find proper airoplanes.


I remember reading an article in a British radio control magazine of the time, written by a guy who made some 6 foot wingspan spitfire models for use in flying scenes of the BoB. They could find a number of planes for use in ground scenes, but not enough airworthy ones to produce a decent looking flight in the air.

Can't remember if they did the same for German planes.
Offline Alsterstreek  
#29 Posted : 03 January 2015 17:06:35(UTC)
Alsterstreek

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Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: Edvan Go to Quoted Post

Had the same idea to represent the train in HO scale but lost it somewhat while I couldn't find the right loc.


Various sources mention that the main locomotive used in this film is an Italian ALCO built class 735 while on the final chase sequence an italian Franco Crosti class 743 acts as a Nazi locomotive.

One solution would be to kitbash existing 2-8-0 models, e.g. by Bachmann. Jouef (now part of Hornby) produced a French 2-8-0 type 140 C in HO which was smaller but generally similar in appearance. Rivarrossi did produce the Italian built Class 74x 2-8-0 which was generally similar to the American 735.

Forum photos:
https://www.marklin-user...nd-Files.aspx#post446351

More info:
http://www.rivarossi-mem...ocos/Riva_Gr_741_Eng.htm

Currently on sale:
http://www.laborsadeltre...gli_prodotto.php?id=8623
http://www.kf-models.it/...apore-Gr-743-366-FS.aspx
Offline abisel  
#30 Posted : 08 January 2015 05:05:32(UTC)
abisel

United States   
Joined: 07/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 139
Location: St. Charles, Missouri
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Edvan Go to Quoted Post

Had the same idea to represent the train in HO scale but lost it somewhat while I couldn't find the right loc.


Various sources mention that the main locomotive used in this film is an Italian ALCO built class 735 while on the final chase sequence an italian Franco Crosti class 743 acts as a Nazi locomotive.

One solution would be to kitbash existing 2-8-0 models, e.g. by Bachmann. Jouef (now part of Hornby) produced a French 2-8-0 type 140 C in HO which was smaller but generally similar in appearance. Rivarrossi did produce the Italian built Class 74x 2-8-0 which was generally similar to the American 735.

Forum photos:
https://www.marklin-user...nd-Files.aspx#post446351

More info:
http://www.rivarossi-mem...ocos/Riva_Gr_741_Eng.htm

Currently on sale:
http://www.laborsadeltre...gli_prodotto.php?id=8623
http://www.kf-models.it/...apore-Gr-743-366-FS.aspx


Thank you for the information. I will see if any of the locomotives are still available at the links you provided.

Regarding the aircraft used in the movie Battle of Britain, it seems that the Bf109s used in the film are in Texas USA and may be up for sale. Even though the cowlings were modified for Merlin/RR engines instead of the original inverted DB605 engines, nevertheless, they are real live Bf109. Dig into your pockets and buy one of these historic aircraft.

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Vi.../August/Pilot/f_talltale

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Offline analogmike  
#31 Posted : 08 January 2015 14:33:28(UTC)
analogmike

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Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
''von ryan'' and ''the train'' are my all time favorites. ever since i was a kid i had my own version of it in marklin. up front was an old, weathered br 44 complete with red #51 smoke deflectors. i think there were 13 boxcars plus coach in the movie. i only had 4 or 5 #4550 fs cars at the time so the rest of the consist was the old style white reefer car or the yellow banana car which i painted brown and sanded the vents from the roofs. my dad used to buy the 4550 cars whenever he came across them because he loved the movie too. the staff car was a #4000 thunderbox. the layout was two 5x9 foot ping pong tables placed together with a branch line that left the table via a 20 foot long, scratch built, popsickle stick bridge (made by dad). a small reverse loop out in the driveway (weather permitting) and back. the staff car was modified to fall apart. all the metal tabs that hold the sides together were straightened out and a large hole was cut into the floor. a black cat firecracker was installed with the fuse sticking out the back window. i even lettered the sides "von ryan's express" in old english. all i had for the plane was a 1/72 scale me410 with a large cannon under the nose. a short piece of straw was attached behind the cockpit so the plane could "fly" along a fishing line. about 25 feet or so mounted on an incline passing low over the bridge. what a show! kids and grownups used to come from all over. i had it timed to the second; the switch was thrown, the fuse was lit, 1 mississippi 2 mississippi 3 mississippi, release the plane, WHAM !!!! that staffcar went all over the place. sometimes it took me an hour to find all the pices so we could do it again. amazingly the rest of the train stayed on the track and continued on it's way! JUST LIKE IN THE MOVIE ! sorry no pictures. don't count the rivets. just have fun! mike.
I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning .
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Offline SteamNut  
#32 Posted : 08 January 2015 16:16:01(UTC)
SteamNut

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Posts: 488
Mike that seems you copied the Adams family when Gomez and Uncle Fester were playing with their trains
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Offline analogmike  
#33 Posted : 08 January 2015 17:50:13(UTC)
analogmike

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Posts: 735
Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
well not exactly; all i ever trashed was the staff car. fester and gomey used to waste the entire bridge, F-7's, and some other train. but that's ok; they were only lionels. mike.
I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning .
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