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Offline Bayer  
#1 Posted : 22 July 2012 22:53:48(UTC)
Bayer


Joined: 16/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 176
Location: Helsingør, Denmark
Hi all,

Some month ago I stumbled upon a, for me completely unknown, train manufacturer: Pocher. I had bought a very big collection of Märklin from the sixties to resell and generate some money. In that collection there were 3 wagons: a marble wagon and two teakpassenger wagons. I didn't really think much about it (it said made in Italy, and my first thought was Lima...) and sold them together with some other stuff to a collector. It was only when I got to talk with the buyer that I realized that I maybe had underestimated the brand and the rarity of especially the marble wagon. The pieces were in fact very well made with lots of details, and perhaps even better than Märklin!
I decided to look closer on their production line and found an old catalog from 1960 on ebay and bought it. In there I saw perhaps one of the most beautiful locomotives: the Speed Record locomotive CC 7107 of the SNCB. I had read different places, that it had some of the most sophisticated features of the time, and it was clear to me; I had to own an example.
The search went in and some weeks ago I had luck. Here's some pictures to start with until I get everything up and running:

UserPostedImage

Original papers including diagrams, instructions, parts list, etc.
UserPostedImage

Catalog from 1960
UserPostedImage

Pricelist from 1962
UserPostedImage

I've done some price comparing with Märklin locomotives and in 1962 the Pocher Mistral was over double as expensive as the 3015. The Pocher Mistral costed 269 DM and the croc just under 100 DM...

More to follow.

Regards,
Thor

Edited by user 23 September 2012 12:50:50(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline kweekalot  
#2 Posted : 22 July 2012 23:19:13(UTC)
kweekalot

Netherlands   
Joined: 27/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,235
Location: Holland
Hi Thor,

Pocher is also completely unknown to me.
But the catalogue and illustration looks really nice, and has the same charm as a 1960s Trix or Marklin catalogue.
Love to see more of Pocher.

marco
Offline Markus Schild  
#3 Posted : 22 July 2012 23:35:29(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,756
Location: Wurttemberg
Hi all,

We discussed that loco before:

https://www.marklin-user...SNCF-CC-7107-3-R-AC.aspx

For further information about the brand look at

http://www.train-passion-pocher.com/

Regards

Markus
Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#4 Posted : 23 July 2012 09:12:01(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,041
It is known to me particularly that French model which must have been their best seller because it is just about the only one I remember seeing on several occasions including in person.

I don't know if they sell normally for their asking prices but prices tend to be quite high near $1000. It is an engine that for the time looks of very high quality and detail but you also have to be very careful when buying. Despite of being made in the 60's when this problem should be a thing of the past. I have seen some examples with very bad zinc pest and others that don't show it so obviously. If I remember properly tends to happen on the chassis and bogies.
Offline Bayer  
#5 Posted : 23 July 2012 10:57:31(UTC)
Bayer


Joined: 16/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 176
Location: Helsingør, Denmark
Hi all,

I didn't know of the older thread and the webside. But some great wagons indeed.

The loco was Pocher's flagship and yet maybe the reason why the firm didn't do it that well and became Pocher Rivarossi. The loco was first seen advertised in the 1958 catalog, but it took about 5 years before the loco could be bought in the stores. Some say that the loco was only produced in 800 examples (300 for AC and 500 for DC) which i doubt. 800 just seems too few. What do you guys think?
I know about the zincpest. Mine has small signs of it, but I think it will hold up for the years to follow. The metal is still strong.
The prices are quite high, but the loco is rare and not seen for sale very often. If you want a perfect example with no zincpest and original box and papers then you have to search for a long time.
Pictures of the the loco will come and also of the inside showing some of the many details.

Regards,
Thor
Offline arconell  
#6 Posted : 23 July 2012 12:35:34(UTC)
arconell


Joined: 27/07/2010(UTC)
Posts: 174
Location: Kreis Kleve, Germany
hi Thor, all,

Pocher was an Italian company and became really famous after WW ll, during the fifties and sixties, for their 1:18 scale classic car model kits. The kits were all metal kits and even today are considered by many the best detailed models ever made. As such the models /kits are still very expensive if you can find them. For a short while Pocher also produced HO MRR loco's. Pocher belonged to Rivarossi and since Rivarossi was acquired by Hornby, the rights now belong to Hornby who doesn't seem interested in reviving the brand.

A short history of the Pocher brand can be found here: http://ebookbrowse.com/p...r-history-pdf-d353792950

Even if It is a rather clumsy English translation of an originally italian text, it will give you a good picture of the Pocher brand and what it stood for.

Regards, Robert

Ps: here is a better translation: http://ebookbrowse.com/p...anslation-pdf-d175892159
Offline Bayer  
#7 Posted : 25 July 2012 00:54:31(UTC)
Bayer


Joined: 16/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 176
Location: Helsingør, Denmark
Didn't know of the car model kits, thanks.

Got the loco up and running today, so here's some pictures as promised:

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

The multi-point plug
UserPostedImage

Small signs of zinkpest to right black frame
UserPostedImage

The multi point plug to the left
UserPostedImage

The centrifugal coupling. A little screw can be tightened and the coupling can function only as a flywheel
UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

Although the housing is made of plastic the model is quite heavy. 760 g

Complete scans of the manuals and diagrams for the loco can be found at the following site:
http://www.rivarossi-memory.it/...r_Loco/Pocher_CC7107.htm

Kind regards,
Thor
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Bayer
Offline Roman  
#8 Posted : 25 July 2012 02:45:50(UTC)
Roman

United States   
Joined: 19/09/2002(UTC)
Posts: 832
Then the robust looking frame that holds that fantastic looking motor and mechanics is metal as well as the trucks? The greatly detailed body shell is amazing? That is one sharp engine. The temptation to branch further out from Maerklin for one of these is irresistible. Thanks for sharing the inner workings.
Roman

Here's a related film about CC 7107 with some folks smoking cigarettes and speaking a funny language. Enjoy.

Offline kweekalot  
#9 Posted : 25 July 2012 09:25:47(UTC)
kweekalot

Netherlands   
Joined: 27/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,235
Location: Holland
WOW, That movie is a total must see !! So super 1950s. ThumpUp
Indeed with a lot of cigarettes smoking, and the language is of cause French.
Thanks for sharing !!
Offline Markus Schild  
#10 Posted : 25 July 2012 10:04:46(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,756
Location: Wurttemberg
Originally Posted by: Bayer Go to Quoted Post
Some say that the loco was only produced in 800 examples (300 for AC and 500 for DC) which i doubt. 800 just seems too few. What do you guys think?


Hi Thor,

Thanks for the pictures. Do you know in which country your loco was sold first? From a price-tag or warranty - stamp? I was told, that Mr. Pocher equipped locos for Germany with reversing-switches from Märklin and locos which were sold in the rest of the world with his own switches. But I'm not sure about that. I can only confirm, that there are also locos with a Märklin reverser-unit.

I also don't trust these numbers. There should be more. I own two AC-locos (one good/one trash) and I know at least three more in the collections of friends. I assume that at least a four-digit number must have been made.

In the last year a new book about the artist Arnaldo Pocher was published in Italy. It is a small book (185 pages/~150 pictures) about the life of the artist and artisan Pocher, published for his 100th anniversary. Not a collectors catalogue. It is written in Italian, German, English and French:
I didn't find it at Amazon, so I ordered direct from Italy:
http://www.hoepli.it/lib...isore/9786009935468.html

Some pictures:

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

Regards

Markus


Offline steventrain  
#11 Posted : 25 July 2012 14:36:49(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 32,764
Very nice old loco, Bayer.

Is it different to find?
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline Bayer  
#12 Posted : 25 July 2012 16:58:12(UTC)
Bayer


Joined: 16/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 176
Location: Helsingør, Denmark
Originally Posted by: Roman Go to Quoted Post
Then the robust looking frame that holds that fantastic looking motor and mechanics is metal as well as the trucks? The greatly detailed body shell is amazing? That is one sharp engine. The temptation to branch further out from Maerklin for one of these is irresistible. Thanks for sharing the inner workings.
Roman


Hello Roman

Yes, the frames and trucks are all metal and very well made. The only problem is the zinkpest which unfortunately is very common on these trains. Quite strange as Arnoldo Pocher was a perfectionist and everything had to be perfect.

Great youtube film. Thanks for sharing.

Markus Schild wrote:
Do you know in which country your loco was sold first? From a price-tag or warranty - stamp?


Hello Markus

The warranty doesn't has a dealer stamp, but I can see that it is number 275 made.
I was told by the seller that the loco came from a collector which didn't run it or had it displayed. It was stored in its box in a basement with constant temperatures. The seller comes from Genoa, Italy.

As for the number produced, I think you are right that there must have been at least 1000 produced. Perhaps a number like 1500 or 2000 is more likely. The biggest number I've seen on the warranty so far is 1016:
http://www.modellbahnwerkstatt....mistral_varianten.0.html

The book looks quite interesting. I've also heard of a collectors catalog. Can't remember the title, but think it is in Italian.

Steventrain wrote:
Is it different to find?


Hello Stephen

There isn't many models around. I've been searching ebay (both .de, .fr and .it) for nearly four month and this one here was one of the only ones I've seen. I didn't want to buy one with zinkpest so that exclude a lot of models.

Kind regards,
Thor
Offline Markus Schild  
#13 Posted : 25 July 2012 17:55:51(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,756
Location: Wurttemberg
Originally Posted by: Bayer Go to Quoted Post

The book looks quite interesting. I've also heard of a collectors catalog. Can't remember the title, but think it is in Italian.



Hi Thor,

Yes, there is a collectors catalogue. Large and heavy, in Italian and very hard to find:

UserPostedImage

I will take some pictures of pages describing the variants of the CC tonight.

Regards

Markus

Offline Markus Schild  
#14 Posted : 25 July 2012 23:27:29(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,756
Location: Wurttemberg
Hi,

As promised, the page about the CC from the BENETTI-book:

UserPostedImage

There is another photo on the next page, but the book is hard to scan.

Regards

Markus
Offline Bayer  
#15 Posted : 28 July 2012 22:58:03(UTC)
Bayer


Joined: 16/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 176
Location: Helsingør, Denmark
Thank you Markus for the scans. The book looks very nice. I am definitely going to look for one. Any idea where I can find one other than on ebay?

Regards,
Thor

Edited by user 11 August 2012 00:40:20(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Markus Schild  
#16 Posted : 28 July 2012 23:42:22(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,756
Location: Wurttemberg
Originally Posted by: Bayer Go to Quoted Post
Any idea where I can find one other than on ebay?



Hi Thor,

I got mine from abebooks.com some years ago. There is also another book "Catalogo Guida al Modellismo Ferroviario di Arnoldo Pocher“ by Michele Lomolino, which I don't own and which I have never seen.
In 2011 another book was published in German, which contains a long chapter about Pocher. Some sample pages con be studied at Google books:

http://books.google.de/b...nfzigerjahre&f=false

It is distributed as "book on demand" and at least not cheap in my opinion. But the first book in German about the rarer brands from France and Italy.

Regards

Markus
Offline Markus Schild  
#17 Posted : 01 August 2012 10:41:58(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,756
Location: Wurttemberg
Originally Posted by: Bayer Go to Quoted Post

The warranty doesn't has a dealer stamp, but I can see that it is number 275 made.
I was told by the seller that the loco came from a collector which didn't run it or had it displayed. It was stored in its box in a basement with constant temperatures. The seller comes from Genoa, Italy.

As for the number produced, I think you are right that there must have been at least 1000 produced. Perhaps a number like 1500 or 2000 is more likely. The biggest number I've seen on the warranty so far is 1016:
http://www.modellbahnwerkstatt....mistral_varianten.0.html



Hi Thor,


I think we don't know how the number must be read:

UserPostedImage
From a late loco.


Regards

Markus
Offline Bayer  
#18 Posted : 04 August 2012 22:55:34(UTC)
Bayer


Joined: 16/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 176
Location: Helsingør, Denmark
Hi Markus

That is a strange number. My first thought was that the number tells us a total amount of all different kind of locos produced before your Mistral (your loco must be from 1965 so pocher did make steam locos and a diesel loco). The number 801/3 also seems to be stamped on later with an other kind of ink (same on mine). That speaks for the theory, but 201097 locos just seem to be too many.

Regards,
Thor
Offline Bayer  
#19 Posted : 23 September 2012 12:49:27(UTC)
Bayer


Joined: 16/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 176
Location: Helsingør, Denmark
Hi all

It has been a while since my last posting about pocher, but since I have come in possession of new great piece, I've decided to share it.

Yesterday I've acquired a very interesting piece, but I don't know much about it, so perhaps some here can help me out with some information.
It is the Pocher SS/01 "Bayard" steam loco.
So far I've only seen ones without paint, but this one is painted in almost the same colors as the prototype and it is very professionally done. Here are some pictures:

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

I've read different places that only 1000 models were made (mine has the number 224), but is that true? The quality is very good. Everything is made out of brass and assembled by hand. It runs on DC.

I've also been trying to find some reference prices or auction results, but with no luck.

As a last thing, I can see in an old catalog that there also were two different passenger wagons made for the loco (SS/02 and SS/03). Do these wagons exist?

Kind regards,
Thor
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Bayer
Offline Markus Schild  
#20 Posted : 23 September 2012 16:19:21(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,756
Location: Wurttemberg
Hi Thor,

My congratulations. A very interesting find.

HANS SCHÖB writes in "Hommage an die Fünfzigerjahre" (partly available: http://books.google.de/b...nepage&q&f=false ) that a green sprayed version is known from France to meet the taste of the local customers. The locos were most probably not painted by POCHER. He also quotes that POCHER was only able to produce and sell 875 locos. Not 1000 as announced. The wagons were never produced.
I know that the locos looked a little bit "dowdy" even short after delivery. POCHER did not coat the locos with a clear varnish, so they lost their metal-shine very fast. This could also be a reason to paint them.

I remember a fair but dusty example being sold on Ebay Germany about two years ago for ~ EUR 600,--.

Regards

Markus
Offline Bayer  
#21 Posted : 23 September 2012 18:23:18(UTC)
Bayer


Joined: 16/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 176
Location: Helsingør, Denmark
Hi Markus

Thank you for your reply.

I'm pretty sure my loco originally comes from Sweden. A catalog from 1962/63 was included in the auction and it has a dealer stamp from Malmö, Sweden.
Do you know if there originally was a manual or any other papers in the box?

I've just found another painted loco:
http://www.train-passion...album=13&gallery=133

The paint scheme is different, but the paint seems to be dull in the same way as mine.

Regards,
Thor
Offline Markus Schild  
#22 Posted : 23 September 2012 20:03:49(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,756
Location: Wurttemberg
Originally Posted by: Bayer Go to Quoted Post

Do you know if there originally was a manual or any other papers in the box?



Hi Thor,

I know that there was a kind of certificate which also shows the number of the loco. But I don't have any photos and I don't know what else there should be.

Regards

Markus

Offline Ian555  
#23 Posted : 24 September 2012 08:45:08(UTC)
Ian555

Scotland   
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 19,951
Location: Scotland
Hi Thor,

Very nice buy. ThumpUp

Ian.

Offline alan  
#24 Posted : 24 September 2012 10:07:54(UTC)
alan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 225
Location: devon

hi

if its its of any interest i have a pocher tee railcar

pocher ale 803 001 810 24 po

but its plastic and i think its more like rivarossi

both coaches are contained in in solid red rivarossi type plastic boxes

the instructions are also rivarossi type even though it says pocher

it also has a solid blue plastic pocher inspection tag

sorry if its the wrong thread

alan plymouth devon
Offline Markus Schild  
#25 Posted : 19 November 2012 16:23:44(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,756
Location: Wurttemberg
Originally Posted by: Bayer Go to Quoted Post


I've also been trying to find some reference prices or auction results, but with no luck.



Hi Thor,

This loco, which looks refurbished, reached 625 EUR+PP without original box:

http://cgi.ebay.de/251181119282

Regards

Markus


Offline Bayer  
#26 Posted : 26 November 2012 22:14:19(UTC)
Bayer


Joined: 16/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 176
Location: Helsingør, Denmark
Hi Markus

Thank you for the link.
You are right, I also think it looks a little bit too shiny.

It's nice to have a refrence price, but I didn't expect the bidding to go so high.
I guess I was really lucky at the auction here in Denmark some months ago.

Regards,
Thor
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