Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline Mark5  
#1 Posted : 18 October 2012 10:24:22(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Ok Gentleman,

I figure I am about to sound very mad here RollEyes, but set my question to rest.

When the electrical current goes back to O or ground brown wires, how does it actually receive the electrical current?
What I mean is does the fluctuation in current on an analog set depend at all on the "return" component in an electric circuit.

I am not sure my question makes sense but what I am getting at, is if the ground of an analog circuit and a digital circuit where to be wired together, would that be disaster... is it even possible?

And if so, could it be possible to have the catenary in Digital say and the track in Analog, the way we use multiple Analog transformers on a layout?

I wondering what safe solutions are out there to make layouts that use both digital and analog locomotives at the same time running under their own corresponding control systems. No doubt the simple solution is to have the two tracks completely isolated from each other. But are there other ways to integrate them safely?

Thanking you in advance for your patient response,
Mark



DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Mark5
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 18 October 2012 12:29:39(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Mark!
Originally Posted by: MM-MarkMontreal Go to Quoted Post
I am not sure my question makes sense but what I am getting at, is if the ground of an analog circuit and a digital circuit where to be wired together, would that be disaster... is it even possible?
That's what you have to do to make a level railroad crossing work with a Mobile Station.

Originally Posted by: MM-MarkMontreal Go to Quoted Post
And if so, could it be possible to have the catenary in Digital say and the track in Analog, the way we use multiple Analog transformers on a layout?
Should work. The other way around (catenary analogue, track digital) this was discussed in several threads already.

See here:
https://www.marklin-user...-on-the-same-layout.aspx
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by H0
Offline Ian555  
#3 Posted : 18 October 2012 12:32:51(UTC)
Ian555

Scotland   
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 20,235
Location: Scotland
Hi Mark,

Over the last 3 years, I've run both analog and digital within the layout, BUT, they are isolated both mechanically and electrically from each other.

I also run 2 digital systems on the layout (CS2 and a MS2) and they are also isolated from each other.

This way you can have you're analog and digital Loco's running on the layout at the same time.....and be 100% safe. Smile

One of the main lines in the station is analog (thanks Ray) and I think it's just great having a late '50s V200 pulling alongside one of those new digital beauties all within the same station.

Ian.

thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Ian555
Offline BrandonVA  
#4 Posted : 18 October 2012 21:57:05(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Mark - very interesting. Let me ask, is the real goal to be able to run both analog and digital at the same time (with whatever limitations and technicalities that brings), or to just be able to operate one or the other on the same layout (such as a way to switch the whole layout between digital an analog operation)?

Also, I am sure you are aware....but it is possible to run delta and most digital locomotives in analog mode without any additional action. This is what I do. I will note that depending on the motor type in the digital model (as others here have often pointed out), the running characteristics aren't very good. And of course running digital locos on analog prevents you from being able to control lights, functions, sounds, etc. You would also have to treat them like analog locos in operation, have track sections in blocks if you wanted to park locos on the layout, use signals, etc. A little bit of a pain for wiring, I have about 15 different sections of track that can be powered on/off at a push of a button, but that's 15 AC wires (using a common ground), and 15 buttons...

-Brandon
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by BrandonVA
Offline kbvrod  
#5 Posted : 18 October 2012 23:02:14(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi Mark,all,

>When the electrical current goes back to O or ground brown wires, how does it actually receive the electrical current?
What I mean is does the fluctuation in current on an analog set depend at all on the "return" component in an electric circuit. <

All electrical flows back and forth,there is no circuit without it.

>And if so, could it be possible to have the catenary in Digital say and the track in Analog, the way we use multiple Analog transformers on a layout?<

Could,one doing this be frickin' careful!

>I wondering what safe solutions are out there to make layouts that use both digital and analog locomotives at the same time running under their own corresponding control systems. No doubt the simple solution is to have the two tracks completely isolated from each other. But are there other ways to integrate them safely?<

You can but Mark,why complicate your life?Laugh

Dr D
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by kbvrod
Offline Western Pacific  
#6 Posted : 18 October 2012 23:22:54(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
Joined: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 841
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
I'm starting planning a new layout and I cannot make up my mind whether I would have it all digital or some of it analogue.

I may go down an avenue similar to what Ian describes, making parts of the layout electrically insulated from each other and then run one part fully digital and possibly one part either digital or analogue controlled by a switch. The disadvantage of course being that I have to make sure I have parked all analogue locomotives on tracks that I can switch off, before flipping the switch to digital operation. Another disadvantage could be the more complex wiring. The advantage being that I can enjoy my analog locomotives even before converting them and yes that is my plan. (For that reason the ESU magnet for converting the 3015 Croc is highly anticipated).

I started a long time ago buying all new locomotives as digital and I had at one point in time an idea that on a future layout I would build the stations, lines, freight yards etc using digital, but keep analogue at the engine depot. But then there were a few locomotives that I wanted that came only as Delta, where you have to change the DIP-switches if you want to run them on a digital layout or the other way around. So, so much for that idea. Today I plan on having the depot as digital.

To summarize, even though a common ground between an analogue and a digital should work OK, provided that there is no phase difference between the power supplies feeding the different parts, I would rather play it safe and make them totally insulated from each other. The risk of having stray currents isn't a real one for H0 scale, as it is for 1:1 operations, but to play it safe, I would avoid common ground.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Western Pacific
Offline Mark5  
#7 Posted : 19 October 2012 05:53:34(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Thanks so much for the feedback everyone.

"WP", you may find it interesting wrt to the common ground.
In the link that Tom mentions—a must read if thinking about this question—
one of the posts by Cookee mentions that he did have both his digital and analog wired to the same ground/brown wire.
He admits to using earlier decoders, but actually had his digital on the catenary.
Read for his words:
https://www.marklin-user...e-layout.aspx#post348446

So, in fact, since I plan to use K-track manual switches so far and M-track in shadow and the first set I am building with my girls is using more simplified M-track (no decoders at points) then it seems this would work, according to the way that Cookee had things set up.

A bit OT... but ...
The issue of power to Catenary with digital and the present production of Marklin locos also raises a question that is worthy of another thread. It seems some of the electric locomotives do not have the ability to be powered by the catenary at all... thus making the cat purely cosmetic. This does not really interest me, unless I have no option. I want it to be able to have the option to power my digital electrics with catenary.... is this wishful noob thinking?

Also has anyone made or seen a list of the electric loks that do not have powered catenary function at all?

Still seeking the best of both worlds,
Mark
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
Offline Mark5  
#8 Posted : 19 October 2012 06:02:39(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Originally Posted by: BrandonVA Go to Quoted Post
Mark - very interesting. Let me ask, is the real goal to be able to run both analog and digital at the same time (with whatever limitations and technicalities that brings), or to just be able to operate one or the other on the same layout (such as a way to switch the whole layout between digital an analog operation)?

... A little bit of a pain for wiring, I have about 15 different sections of track that can be powered on/off at a push of a button, but that's 15 AC wires (using a common ground), and 15 buttons...


Hi Brandon,

Yes, in my ideal world, I would like to run both digital and analog at the same time on one track, separated catenary feed or centre rail feed.

As for isolated track, I am planning a slew of buttons too...
Buttons, clearly marked with a layout map.
I am used to people pushing my buttons anyway Wink
Digital or analog, we can slue things around with our slew of buttons.

- Mark
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 19 October 2012 08:31:41(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Western Pacific Go to Quoted Post
To summarize, even though a common ground between an analogue and a digital should work OK, provided that there is no phase difference between the power supplies feeding the different parts
Phase difference doesn't matter with Märklin 5-digit digital devices (and IMHO it doesn't even matter with 6021/6017).

Phase difference does matter with several analogue circuits, but only makes a difference when a loco passes from one circuit to another.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline BrandonVA  
#10 Posted : 19 October 2012 17:33:51(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Western Pacific Go to Quoted Post
To summarize, even though a common ground between an analogue and a digital should work OK, provided that there is no phase difference between the power supplies feeding the different parts
Phase difference doesn't matter with Märklin 5-digit digital devices (and IMHO it doesn't even matter with 6021/6017).

Phase difference does matter with several analogue circuits, but only makes a difference when a loco passes from one circuit to another.


Even this being the case, it's pretty easy to fix, you just need a couple of minutes, some wire and a bulb or lamp.

Offline BrandonVA  
#11 Posted : 19 October 2012 17:44:48(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Originally Posted by: MM-MarkMontreal Go to Quoted Post


Hi Brandon,

Yes, in my ideal world, I would like to run both digital and analog at the same time on one track, separated catenary feed or centre rail feed.

As for isolated track, I am planning a slew of buttons too...
Buttons, clearly marked with a layout map.
I am used to people pushing my buttons anyway Wink
Digital or analog, we can slue things around with our slew of buttons.

- Mark


Mark,

I figured, after I reread your original post. The biggest limitation I see is that you're stuck only using e-loks or vice versa for Digital. Regarding my original (probably dumb) idea of being able to switch the tracks between digital an analog: What if you were able to switch both the track and the catenary between digital and analog (assuming appropriate safety mechanisms and probably a ton of wiring)? That way you could run a digital E-loc and analog steam/diesel, and then switch and run an analog e-loc and digital steam/diesel? To expand on this idea, what if you also had your track sections (for simplicities sake lets say two loops) isolated, and you could independently switch each loop between analog and digital? This would give a lot of flexibility (especially adding catenary to the mix) to run different types of loco on different sections of the layout at the same time, analog on one loop, digital on catenary, digital on another loop, etc etc. The wiring my be complex, but if the layout has manual turnouts I am guessing it will omit automated signals as well. If this is the case, after careful design it may not be too bad. Most of the wiring on my semi-spagetti mess (called layout) is turnouts (3 wires per turnout).

The biggest concern I would have about running analog and digital on the same track at the same time is collisions. If the digi loc is set to a certain speed and chugging along, and the analog loc itself doing the same thing, you have to be quick and very focused to remember where to cut the power to prevent it (say at your MS2 or at your transformer). Maybe a power kill switch is in order ;)

If you have lighting, running it on analog power may be easier, and it can share the same common ground. I also know of a few people here who have suggested running lighting on it's on transformer so you can adjust the brightness to make things look a bit better and save the life of your bulbs. I was planning to do this and use one of my now free blue transformers (6627).

-Brandon

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by BrandonVA
Offline Mark5  
#12 Posted : 19 October 2012 21:16:30(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Originally Posted by: BrandonVA Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MM-MarkMontreal Go to Quoted Post


Hi Brandon,

Yes, in my ideal world, I would like to run both digital and analog at the same time on one track, separated catenary feed or centre rail feed.

As for isolated track, I am planning a slew of buttons too...
Buttons, clearly marked with a layout map.
I am used to people pushing my buttons anyway Wink
Digital or analog, we can slue things around with our slew of buttons.

- Mark


Mark,

I figured, after I reread your original post. The biggest limitation I see is that you're stuck only using e-loks or vice versa for Digital. Regarding my original (probably dumb) idea of being able to switch the tracks between digital an analog: What if you were able to switch both the track and the catenary between digital and analog (assuming appropriate safety mechanisms and probably a ton of wiring)?

[...replying to your ideas intext below...]



Mark: Some very excellent ideas here Brandon. Some of which I was toying with and now you have clarified for me Brandon. Thanks again buddy. I have to post photos of the layout I am working on now.

Brandon: That way you could run a digital E-loc and analog steam/diesel, and then switch and run an analog e-loc and digital steam/diesel? To expand on this idea, what if you also had your track sections (for simplicities sake lets say two loops) isolated, and you could independently switch each loop between analog and digital? ...

Mark: This first layout is two loops with a loop back and a yard. Later plan for a tight helix into a mountian. I am under orders from my four little commandant-ettes to build a mountain with a coal mine in it, because my oldest read a book about a girl whose father worked in a coal mine. Plus I am fascinated with all things coal because my own father used to by coal from USS Steel in Pittsburg for Ontario Hydro in Canada. (another story) I am trying to set things up so they can help with the scenery. But I digress... that is another thread in which I will post photos. Lets stick to dual systems here. I was planning to have only one loop and with catenary, but might have to do two, but certainly not the yard on this one. The hand-thrown switches are nearest to the edge. There are some electric switches in the proposed tunnels and the yard. I don't want to have hand-thrown under catenary or tight places that little hands cannot get at. (accessible from the side, or from underneath in a portal).

Brandon: This would give a lot of flexibility (especially adding catenary to the mix) to run different types of loco on different sections of the layout at the same time, analog on one loop, digital on catenary, digital on another loop, etc etc. The wiring my be complex, but if the layout has manual turnouts I am guessing it will omit automated signals as well. If this is the case, after careful design it may not be too bad. Most of the wiring on my semi-spagetti mess (called layout) is turnouts (3 wires per turnout).

Mark: I love this idea and I think it works wonderfully with the way I was going. As for "phase" I read the Eckert Engingeering essay on working it out, and its simple. I noticed the sparking on a lok when switching loops and stopped right away until I found out how to get the phasing right. Now I just have the plugs marked to know when to plug in trafos.

Brandon: The biggest concern I would have about running analog and digital on the same track at the same time is collisions. If the digi loc is set to a certain speed and chugging along, and the analog loc itself doing the same thing, you have to be quick and very focused to remember where to cut the power to prevent it (say at your MS2 or at your transformer). Maybe a power kill switch is in order ;)

Mark: Kill power switch is now on the menu. With multiple girls at operation, even smart ones, crashes need be anticipated.

Brandon: If you have lighting, running it on analog power may be easier, and it can share the same common ground. I also know of a few people here who have suggested running lighting on it's on transformer so you can adjust the brightness to make things look a bit better and save the life of your bulbs. I was planning to do this and use one of my now free blue transformers (6627).

Mark: Lights transformers also on the menu. I want to show a thread with photos of trafos discussing a list of the different kinds. Even got a Life-like trafo in the mix of a bunch of staff and pleasantly surprised to see it has AC for accessories. Tried it and works wonderfully.

More later. I am pretty excited about multiple options, especially suggestion to switch over analog and digital from top to bottom. The trick is to make it fool-proof so as not to cross wires. I amazed to see how much the girls enjoy working with the wires and get the idea of electrical circuits.

Next stop: Photo posting!

Mark




DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
Users browsing this topic
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.504 seconds.