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Offline TEEPOL  
#1 Posted : 06 September 2023 15:50:06(UTC)
TEEPOL

France   
Joined: 31/08/2023(UTC)
Posts: 2
Location: Ile de France, Paris
I have 13 old analogic locos bougt in the 70's, working very well and I am thinking about transfering my net to the digital.
I am just begining to buy secund hand digital locos and I plan to share my network in 2 : Analogic and digital.

First of all I am wondering what kind of central unit 6020 : 6021 : 6035 ...or Mobile station CS 2 / CS 3 to buy.
I am lost with the different models and how it is connected to each other
I plan to have 2 or 3 locos with sound but it is my priority.
Have you any documentation to understand what kind of station to buy and the different parts of the puzzle ? (secund hand preferred for cost reasons)
Thanks for the help
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by TEEPOL
Offline marklinist5999  
#2 Posted : 06 September 2023 16:32:12(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 2,491
Location: Michigan, Troy
Welcome Teepol! Firstly, newer decoders and sound decoders are MFX, so a 6021 is limited in functions, at least without complex key strokes on the keypad. It is also only compatible with a CS3 with a 6021 connect box, which adds a substantial cost. The MS2 does a lot more. and can connect to a CS3 for a second controller, recieving which ever Locos you add to it fro the CS3. It is also updatable with a CS3, as the updates are sent to a CS3. An MS2 can be update via the web, but is complex.
A CS3 plus includes a LAN port on the bottom to connect feedback decoders without a need for an extra adapter or power supply. Both have a powerful booster.
I suggest the CS3 big book which explains new and former digital systems and compatibility.
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Offline Martti Mäntylä  
#3 Posted : 07 September 2023 02:28:06(UTC)
Martti Mäntylä

Finland   
Joined: 15/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 356
Location: Uusimaa, Helsinki
Hi Teepol,

I am not sure how far you want to carry your aspiration of combining analog and digital operation.

Anyway, faced with a similar starting point as yours, I decided to build a hybrid of analog and digital that allows me to run both analog and digital trains with a uniform and high level of automation.

To achieve this, I need a Märklin 60116 track box hooked to a computer through a CAN Digital interface. To control the setup, I use Rocrail.

Other than the track box, I have felt no need to acquire a CS.
- Martti M.
Era III analog & digital (Rocrail, CAN Digital Bahn, Gleisbox/MS2, K83/K84), C & M tracks, some Spur 1
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Martti Mäntylä
Offline einotuominen  
#4 Posted : 07 September 2023 06:22:35(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 280
Location: Kaarina
Hello,

Have you considered in upgrading your analog locomotives to digital and having only digital track?

Upgrading old locos is not too difficult in most cases.

BR,
Eino
Offline JohnjeanB  
#5 Posted : 07 September 2023 10:26:09(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,773
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: TEEPOL Go to Quoted Post
I have 13 old analogic locos bougt in the 70's, working very well and I am thinking about transfering my net to the digital.
I am just begining to buy secund hand digital locos and I plan to share my network in 2 : Analogic and digital.

First of all I am wondering what kind of central unit 6020 : 6021 : 6035 ...or Mobile station CS 2 / CS 3 to buy.
I am lost with the different models and how it is connected to each other
I plan to have 2 or 3 locos with sound but it is my priority.
Have you any documentation to understand what kind of station to buy and the different parts of the puzzle ? (secund hand preferred for cost reasons)
Thanks for the help


Hi TEEPOL (Un prénom serait super)
First it is great to have you with us. A warm welcome to this great forum.
Here a Märklin fan from Ile de France, started in 1961 with M track, a loop of rails and a 3037 (E41 loco) and now with a permanent layout with digital and PC control (Rocrail
Here is a glimpse of my present layout with C track, if you are courious
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6WnhXPcRqI

What kind of Central Station?
- I used a 6020 (the very first Central Unit), then 6021 (with MM2 protocol), then CS1 60212, then CS2 and now CS3
- 6021 was really a good unit, mine is still working but now quite outdated
- CS1 was a scam by ESU resulting with a legal fight between ESU and Märklin, so poor unit, poor display, no update no maintenance
- CS2 was an excellent unit (60215) provided you avoid early units 60213 and 60214 which had a design problem (no galvanic separation. Only one drawback: they are not maintained by anyone (so when it fails, it goes to trash)
- CS3 is very good but expensive (I purchased mine in Germany like 2 years ago for approx. 580€).

Just a suggestion here but why not starting with a digital stater kit (I just bought a 29243) or a Mobile station 2 with its trackbox 60116 and its 36 W power supply.
It will allow you to taste digital before making large investments. Drawback you give up the possibility of feed-back signalling

Connection to digital modules
- locos need to be digital or upgraded using digital kits mostly for DC motors mLD3 low cost), mSD3 (sound) or for old Märklin locos with "universal" motors (winded inductor)
- switches or signals could be analogue (regular wiring totally separated from the digital part) or digital using either a 4-way decoder M83 (60832) or imbedded decoders 74462 (more expensive but great for carpet trains and not good for permanent layouts). Avoid using 6083 modules (cheap but no safeguard to turn the solenoids off)
- detection is only applicable with central stations (6021, 60212,60213-60216, 60226). It uses the S88 family (now 60881, 60882 (for DC), 60883 (Link 88 (required with CS2s or CS3 (60226). Avoid using older generation of S88 (6088, 60880) with its flat cables, prone to bad contacts and electric interferences.

Digital and analog together?
- If, by accident, digital power is connected to analogue power, the risk of destruction is really big
- so the best is to have 2 independant zones, one for analogue, another for digital without any connecting track inbetween.
- another possibility is to install a switch to feed your layout EITHER with digital or with analog power.

So looking forward to read from you and your projects
Cheers / Amicalement
Jean
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Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 07 September 2023 10:38:45(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,102
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
- CS1 was a scam by ESU resulting with a legal fight between ESU and Märklin, so poor unit, poor display, no update no maintenance
That sounds hard. Do you have any links about the legal issues between Märklin and ESU?
The CS1 is a good unit and it is still receiving updates from ESU.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline JohnjeanB  
#7 Posted : 07 September 2023 11:43:39(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,773
Location: Paris, France
Hi Tom
All is a matter of opinion. Mine is that the CS1 is a piece of junk with flimsy add-on modules, not user-friendly, not readable, no power, so I stop using it 2 years after purchase. Besides I collect Märklin, not ESU.
ESU's updates are now long finished and already in 2010 (when I got my first CS2) this was like day and night).
So I would not advise ANYONE to purchase such a unit (60212)
Cheers
Jean
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Offline blid  
#8 Posted : 07 September 2023 13:19:28(UTC)
blid

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 221
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
There is a huge difference between the Marklin CS1 and the the more user friiendly and very capable ESU version CS1 Reloaded. I think Tom is referring to the still supported Reloaded version.
OneGauge Marklin and MTH, ESU ECoS 2.1 on LGB tracks. MTH 3-rail 0-gauge, DCS on GarGraves tracks. Z: Rokuhan tracks, analog or DCC+TC Gold.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#9 Posted : 07 September 2023 14:29:28(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 7,715
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
- CS1 was a scam by ESU resulting with a legal fight between ESU and Märklin, so poor unit, poor display, no update no maintenance
That sounds hard. Do you have any links about the legal issues between Märklin and ESU?
...


I am aware there was some form of legal action, but the claims and counter claims I do not know anything about.

I do know that the booster for the cs1 that ESU produced had major problems, as well as requiring both rails and center studs to be isolated between cs and booster sections (and probably between booster to booster sections). I seem to recall that Marklin recalled them all as they just did not work, and anyone with a large layout was left in limbo for a while until they introduced the cs2. Also the whole design of the cs1 looked dated from the day it was introduced, rather like a 1960s American styling that always looked dated. I certainly wasn't impressed with its looks.

I suspect part of the legal action was involved with ESU going on to develop the original EcOS, which had a colour screen and much more modern styling, and were putting their development efforts into that when Marklin were expecting ongoing development to be going into cs1 features, which did appear to stall for quite a while.
Offline TEEPOL  
#10 Posted : 07 September 2023 18:32:36(UTC)
TEEPOL

France   
Joined: 31/08/2023(UTC)
Posts: 2
Location: Ile de France, Paris
Hi everybody and a large thanks for your detailled and interesting answers.

Just to give you more information about my train net, for the moment I just plan to enter digital world only for my locos and not for signals and tracks ans switches. iIt is too much work at this step. I want only to have pleasure to drive the locos all together, some of them withe TELEX, smoke and sound.
So I have to keep all the tracks on M-type.
When I read our advices, I understand there is a real risk to mix analogic and digital net. It is important and I have to think about it.
The only reason of my choice would to prevent me to convert my 13 old locos because I am not sur it is possible (space, version of the engines...) and costs. Till now I dont feel confident to do it myself. But in the next future why not. I have just begin to buy some secund hands digital locos and it is really cheaper than to pay a shop to do it.

Dealing with my question on the good type of control unit, thanks for your answer.
Since my last message, I have loaded different notices (6021, 6065é et CS 3)

After reading you, I understand :

I can avoid these machines : 6020, MM1, CS1 because out dated
the control unit 6021 is rustic and limited but it a solid solution and maybe enough for my need to digitalie only 20 locos. A default : it needs an expensive solution to be connected later to a CS3
The CS 3 is the top but expensive and too sophiticated for my present needs the 3 next years..
So It seems that the middle solution would be a mobile station MM2 ref 60 657. (The 60 652 seems too old,isn't ?) I have seen this type of station sold for about 120 Euros.
What do you think about it ?
A last question : is there a specific problem to connect M track to a MM2 ? Or I have ony to connect two wires (red and brown) as usual.
I ask it for I have seen a specfic connection to C track on documentation
Thanks for your help

PS My name is Jean but my surname is Teepol. So you can go on by using it.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by TEEPOL
Offline JohnjeanB  
#11 Posted : 13 September 2023 10:18:51(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,773
Location: Paris, France
Hi Jean
I believe the MS2 is a good way to start:
- gives you access to all fonctions of a loco
- gives you a reasonnable power (36 W) to drive 4 locos simultaneously (older locos may be much more power-hungry 10W or more when newer are closer to 2 -3 watts
- in theory the 60652 is equivalent to the 60657 but you may get long-term surprizes because of an older hardware revision number.
- if later you purchase a CS3, you still can use your MS2 as a slave to the CS3

The MS2 restrictions
- cannot handle inputs (S88 signals) to start doing automatic operation
- loco selection is a bit primitive
- the accessory selection is by address so OK for a small number of them.
- the MS2 is of course only good when associated with its trackbox 60116 and its power supply 66360

To check price levels, I go on ebay.de (Germany) where it cost 118€ plus shipment for the pack of 3 (60657+60116+66360)

Although I have a CS3 60226 I made myself a present of a starter kit 29243 (with a BR24, 3 Donnerbüchsen, an oval of C Tracks and 60657, 60116, powersupply for 388.04€ including shipment and a 4-month paypal payment (Berlinski in Germany)

Is there a problem to connect a MS2, trackbox and PSU to M-track?

No problem provided you verify that no track has noise suppressing capacitors 5131 which would short-circuit the digital output.
So connecting the brown and red wires is very fine.
As you know, M track is not as precise as C track but since there are a lot of them you may find it with decent prices.
With metal couplers, occasional shorts may happen (coupling bar touching studs on accasion)
The other drawback is that you can't make long occupation detection streches (unlike with C or K track)
Cheers
Jean
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bph
Offline heinrichhess  
#12 Posted : 13 September 2023 15:27:19(UTC)
heinrichhess

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/05/2023(UTC)
Posts: 199
Location: Wales, powys
hi and welcome
I run vey old second hand digital locos called delta using a mobile station 2 my reason for digital is only to run loco's in different directions on same track for shunting

I use old semaphore signals witch cut power to track i have NO digital switches all analogue and running on old m track. Using analogue loco's which I do means no control over them they run at full speed stopping only at semaphore on mainline i enjoy using them and when cash allows i will fit digital decoder i would suggest a new starter set on digital see if you like it get all you need and some c track are a good price if you don't like it sell on eBay

I put of buying digital for so long not wanting a computer taking all my fun of driving away i started with Hornby digital i was not impressed marklin digital is grate well recommend

-mobile station 2

-delta digital

-any track

-new digital starter set

-good luck hess
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Offline BenP  
#13 Posted : 14 September 2023 16:49:34(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 276
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: Martti Mäntylä Go to Quoted Post
Hi Teepol,

I am not sure how far you want to carry your aspiration of combining analog and digital operation.

Anyway, faced with a similar starting point as yours, I decided to build a hybrid of analog and digital that allows me to run both analog and digital trains with a uniform and high level of automation.

To achieve this, I need a Märklin 60116 track box hooked to a computer through a CAN Digital interface. To control the setup, I use Rocrail.

Other than the track box, I have felt no need to acquire a CS.


How do you connect the Märklin 60116 with a PC? It seems to have only two Mobile Station slots. And, does it manage track shorts like a control station would?

Digital M track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories, and small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
Offline einotuominen  
#14 Posted : 19 September 2023 19:09:48(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 280
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post


How do you connect the Märklin 60116 with a PC? It seems to have only two Mobile Station slots. And, does it manage track shorts like a control station would?



You can do it with a device called CC Schnitte by Can Digital Bahn: https://www.spielzeug-me...bahn-startset1-18ql.html

-Eino
Offline kimballthurlow  
#15 Posted : 21 September 2023 08:41:29(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,533
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: TEEPOL Go to Quoted Post
...
So It seems that the middle solution would be a mobile station MM2 ref 60 657. (The 60 652 seems too old,isn't ?) I have seen this type of station sold for about 120 Euros.
What do you think about it ?
A last question : is there a specific problem to connect M track to a MM2 ? Or I have ony to connect two wires (red and brown) as usual.
I ask it for I have seen a specfic connection to C track on documentation
Thanks for your help

PS My name is Jean but my surname is Teepol. So you can go on by using it.


Hi Jean,
Given that you wish to start off carefully without spending too much I can say from experience:
There is nothing wrong with getting a 60652 - it works well with limited number of 10 locos registered for operation at any one time.
And there is no facility for controlling digital turnouts or accessories (which you said you don't need - there are many of us think like you).

However buying a 60657 would also be good, because it is later electronics.
Yes red and brown as usual.

Kimball

HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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