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Offline Mark5  
#1 Posted : 23 January 2023 07:48:33(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,317
Location: Montreal, Canada
Hello Marklinists and Eurotrain fans!

So I have been trying to do my homework on some of the history of Dutch trains from around the postwar period to around 1965. My quest started by wanting to have something more interesting to pull for my SEH800 (Class 1300) and my early version of the blue NS1200. (without 1968 logo).

My parents immigrated from the province of Holland in 1954 to Canada, so its something that has been dear to my heart for a long time. On visits back to the Netherlands my Dad picked up some Marklin material. Not much but three locos, one steamer, one electric and one little diesel. Then several years later we built a simple layout with two loops and I was thrilled to set up and use the robust Marklin catenary which run on the second transformer. All of my Christmas gifts went into this. We had one light signal to stop the train, and a three-stall roundhouse, fed by a triple switch. Then I built a crude styrofoam mountain that was never really finished. The trains were not dutch models but of course we made two different Faller windmills—with the motor to turn the sails—one of which still stands on my shelf.

Now in the last year I've discovered the Arcitec models and find them really beautiful and have bought several of the facades as I plan to have a thin Dutch module on my layout, row houses, canal, tracks. However I need help finding any brand of model trains that can be adapted by changing to AC wheels that would look good and prototypically appropriate to run in a city segment within the province of Holland in the Netherlands. That said, I make it difficult for myself since I need to be able to have dates of the prototype and the exact years they might have run, the routes they might have used and as believable as possible the consists to match. I plan to photograph them for a storyline; a kind of photoplay, part of my larger project.

So of course first thing I did was read the wikipedia entry:
https://en.wikipedia.org...i/Nederlandse_Spoorwegen
I was very surprised to find that "The Dutch rail network is one of the busiest in the European Union, and the third busiest in the world after Switzerland and Japan.[4]"

This list of trains in the Netherlands is also handy:
https://en.wikipedia.org...rains_in_the_Netherlands

Then I found a brief history of the postwar on the NS site:
https://www.ns.nl/en/abo...ory/war-and-mergers.html
I do read general history, but of course there is so much detail when it comes to industrial history, which I find the most fascinating.

And for the record, here is a forum post of the NS 1200 with great photos.
https://www.marklin-user...sts/t33755-NS-Class-1200

So yes, I tried to google for current model offerings of that period, at shops and on ebay.
My reading of Dutch is a bit better than my reading of German, but that is not saying too much, and it helps to have the deepl.com translator on hand. I have joined the dutch 3rail forum, but have not posted yet for fear of my deepl aided dutch putting me in trouble.
Laugh

All that said, I would like to invite anyone who has an interest in the period of history or knowledge of the models and where they can be purchased to post any informative link and discussion to contribute to this as a topical ongoing thread.

Always wonderful to see what we manage to find here.
Let the games begin! Thank you.
- Mark Five
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam, so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
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Offline tonyfh  
#2 Posted : 23 January 2023 10:08:54(UTC)
tonyfh


Joined: 17/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 103
Location: Netherlands
Hello Mark, all,

I am not a specialist of Dutch trains but maybe I have some tips to explore for you.

About your fear of Dutch language, if you explain your ancestry I think most people will not make a problem of it when you write in English, a lot of people overhere are also speaking English (more or less that is)

A forum where you can read or register with a lot of knowledge about Dutch trains is https://forum.beneluxspoor.net/

About older Dutch train models I know Roco has made a lot of them, nice models with mostly AC wheelsets available.
For example, Blokkendozen, plan D, etc.

Maybe you already know Märklin has made tin-plate Plan W? coaches also? 2e class nr. 4049, 1e class nr. 4117 and a postal van nr. 4048.
Alas I don't know the year the prototypes were introduced.

Another source can be https://www.roco.cc/ren/...status=41%2C42%2C43%2C45 for what is available new.

You could also keep an eye on the https://www.catawiki.com/nl/c/387-modeltreinen auctions.

The Dutch marketplace https://www.marktplaats.nl/q/modeltreinen+ho/

And then a visit to the swapmeet in Houten,https://www.modelspoorbeurs.nl , or the show https://www.eurospoor.nl/en/, alas still no sign if this show is held this year, normally it is held in november in Utrecht next to the main railway station and not far from the Dutch railway museum.
At the meet and show you can mostly find a lot of older models, most for fair prices but beware, some traders have exceptional prices is what I am reading.

So far my post for today, succes with your search and all the best, Tony.



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Offline Mark5  
#3 Posted : 24 January 2023 03:01:11(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,317
Location: Montreal, Canada
Thank for you links Tony, they are quite helpful.

I did pick up the Marklin 4049 and 4048 coaches and van but a 4117 seems to be only era 4.

Surprised to see quite a few from Roco in the link you posted.
Will try to see what I can match up.

I did get a couple of the Marklin "Pieter Bon" sets just this weekend, but I am still unsure of when and where they travelled other than in Zaandam where the factory was.

I would like to know if NS passenger trains ever went across the border and if they might have occasionally had mixed trains with DSG or other cars coming in from Germany. I think one of the early catalogs shows a mixed set, but I dont know where the image from the Marklin catalog is anymore.

So there are quite a few items with the modern 1968 NS logo, but much less that models older rolling stock with it.

I might buy a couple of the Aritec NS wagons, they are really interesting. I will post links to those another time.

An interesting article was posted in Fast Company a few years about the design of the new NS trains.
Found this really interesting and innovative an idea. Have you see this?
https://www.fastcompany....e-nicer-than-your-office


Originally Posted by: tonyfh Go to Quoted Post

[.....]

Maybe you already know Märklin has made tin-plate Plan W? coaches also? 2e class nr. 4049, 1e class nr. 4117 and a postal van nr. 4048.
Alas I don't know the year the prototypes were introduced.

Another source can be https://www.roco.cc/ren/...status=41%2C42%2C43%2C45 for what is available new.

You could also keep an eye on the https://www.catawiki.com/nl/c/387-modeltreinen auctions.
[......]

Edited by user 24 January 2023 08:18:16(UTC)  | Reason: typo

DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam, so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
Offline applor  
#4 Posted : 24 January 2023 05:22:35(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,574
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I would be quite interested to hear about the express wagons (AB4ü, C4ü) used by the NS that ran through Germany on international D-trains and F-trains after the war (era IIIa) if you find anything out.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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Offline Mark5  
#5 Posted : 24 January 2023 06:58:45(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,317
Location: Montreal, Canada
Going back over this video to catch glimpses of German rolling stock that remained in Holland after the war as well. Great suggestion and yes I will try to find more information concering the international D and F trains of course. I am fascinated to understand how transportation, industry and trade brought unity to Europe in the postwar period especially. And what the barriers were to making international travel, trade and industry happen. The historical lens of our hobby continues to thrill me.

By the way I used the CC with translator, but fun to hear the dutch too.


Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
I would be quite interested to hear about the express wagons (AB4ü, C4ü) used by the NS that ran through Germany on international D-trains and F-trains after the war (era IIIa) if you find anything out.
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam, so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
Offline tonyfh  
#6 Posted : 24 January 2023 10:04:58(UTC)
tonyfh


Joined: 17/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 103
Location: Netherlands
Hello Mark, All,

Unfortunately I don't know a lot of Dutch trains.

But it came to mind that nowaday Piko is als making models of Dutch rolling stock, https://www.piko-shop.de...amp;attribv_1_2%5B%5D=NS

In the past also Fleischmann, Lima, Rivarossi, etc. made NS rolling stock models.

About passenger trains, I know there were trains going abroad, for example the Beneluxtrain from Amsterdam to Brussels mostly ran with a Belgian lok and Dutch coaches.
There were also trains running to Aachen and Köln in Germany, mostly with NS coaches.
Foreign coaches were also running in the Netherlands but with NS loks because of the different power and traincontrol systems.

In the topic "19 toen" on Beneluxspoor, https://forum.beneluxspo.../index.php?topic=17847.0 you find pictures of older rolling stock, for example on the first page the first foto the green MU is pre WW2, the MU direct behind is a Mat'54 Hondekop, and the one left of it is a Mat'64 Apenkop.
And for example the dieselloco's 2200/2300, 2400/2500, eloc's 1100, 1200 and 1300 are from the '50ties as far as I know.
The "Bakkies", 500/600 and "Sik's", are even older I think.
The series 2000 are originating from WW2 and are former Whitcomb US Army diesels, see also Piko website.

When you browse the topic "19 Toen" you will see several of the mentioned trains, mostly in later years, but think of it whithout the logo's and often in another colour and you are back in the fifties or sixties.

That's it for today, all the best and greetings, Tony.
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#7 Posted : 24 January 2023 12:44:44(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,396
Location: Hybrid Home
Since you asked about international passenger trains with Dutch carriages, here are some appetizers:

The rolling stock of the Holland-Italy Express consisted of six different railway administrations. As a night connection with the route Amsterdam - Emmerich - Düsseldorf - Mainz - Mannheim - Basel - Lucerne - Gotthard - Milano - Bologna - Roma, the train took 26 hours and 45 minutes in the winter timetable of 1955 and covered 1,650 kilometres. According to the standard train formation plan of 1955, the Dutch part of the train of the Dutch State Railways NS consisted of a baggage coach, a 2nd class coach and a 1st/2nd class coach and ran as far as Milan.
Source: https://verein-hsf.ch/ge...holland-italien-express/

E 771 / E 784 from Cologne Hbf to Amsterdam CS in 1958: The international train consisted of one German and four Dutch wagons. The German half luggage car, based on a 36-unit express train car, was based at Cologne station. NS probably used 2nd class coaches from the Plan D procurement (More about Plan D carriages: http://www.seinarm.nl/Staal/Plan-D).
Source: https://db58.de/2018/01/...-koeln-hbf-amsterdam-cs/

D 301 / D 302 between Vienna Westbf and Amsterdam CS was listed with Dutch wagon groups. Images of „Zugbildung“: https://db58.de/2009/04/...ze-zugbildung-d301-d302/
Furthermore, here is a D 301 photograph and list of, inter alia, Dutch coaches: https://db58.de/2010/07/02/d-301-bei-karlstadt/

The F 108 Holland-Italia express contained one Dutch coach: http://heinrich-hanke.de...ildung/1958_db_00108.htm

In the 1950s, D 171/172 Hoek van Holland - Kobenhavn had several Dutch coaches: http://heinrich-hanke.de...uege/nordwestexpress.htm

The train consist of the D 263 / D 264 of the NS - Jugoslavia-Express shows Dutch passenger coaches; some images: https://db58.de/2009/07/...ldungsplan-d263-d264-ns/

And finally some information on Plan N cars together with a 1979 photo of a German electric hauling Dutch Plan N cars: http://www.martijnhaman.nl/plann.htm
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#8 Posted : 24 January 2023 13:06:58(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,396
Location: Hybrid Home
1958/1959 Dutch long distance to connections from a German perspective:
F-Zug-Netz-N-S_1.jpg
Source: https://db58.de/2012/08/...in-der-brieftasche-1958/


Then there was the Benelux train, an international train which connected Amsterdam and Brussels. The first Benelux train services were provided in 1957 by the Mat '57 Beneluxt trainsets. This was a purpose-built version of the Dutch 1954 stock ("Hondekop"), suitable for the Dutch catenary voltage of 1500 volts and the Belgian of 3000 volts. These trains had a dark blue colour, with a yellow band at the bottom. Twelve two-car trainsets of this train type were available (eight owned by NS and four by SNCB).

Edited by user 24 January 2023 19:29:00(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline river6109  
#9 Posted : 24 January 2023 13:16:29(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,115
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Interesting topic
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline kiwiAlan  
#10 Posted : 24 January 2023 16:20:27(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 7,395
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post

An interesting article was posted in Fast Company a few years about the design of the new NS trains.
Found this really interesting and innovative an idea. Have you see this?
https://www.fastcompany....e-nicer-than-your-office


I did like the last paragraph. BigGrin BigGrin

But to my way of thinking, when I get on the train there will never be the style of seating I want, because it will already be occupied. And I wonder how safe sitting cross legged is in an accident, it is bad enough with normal seating ... Scared

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Offline Gregor  
#11 Posted : 24 January 2023 16:43:10(UTC)
Gregor

Netherlands   
Joined: 17/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 986
Location: Netherlands
A very informative site on Dutch trains (but also from other countries) is www.nicospilt.com.

Click "Start" and then choose "Nederlands materieel" in the menu on the left.

Best regards,
Gregor
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Offline Mark5  
#12 Posted : 25 January 2023 22:41:47(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,317
Location: Montreal, Canada
Some wonderful Dutch resin models also on https://www.alsacast.nl/en/
I'm planning to have a small canal along the tracks. Has anyone seen Dutch shelf layouts with canal and tracks alongside? If so, I would love to see them and glean some ideas.

Wondering now what the relationship is with this manufacturer and Arititec because I noticed some of the same model buildings on the Artitec website, all great stuff. Their German figures are also appear to be "fine scale": https://www.artitecshop.com/en/

With Artitec on some you have the painted and the unpainted versions.
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam, so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Mark5
Offline Alsterstreek  
#13 Posted : 26 January 2023 14:06:21(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,396
Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
Has anyone seen Dutch shelf layouts with canal and tracks alongside? If so, I would love to see them and glean some ideas.
Here you go:

Various links:
https://www.floodland.nl/aim/info_draaibrug_1.htm
http://home.kpn.nl/bakk2697/Inleiding2.html
https://www.facebook.com...1336122886426556/?type=3
https://www.railhobby.nl/nederlandse-spoordijk-h0/
https://www.stummiforum....s-Amsterdam-Diorama.html

Video:
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