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Offline jonsson01  
#1 Posted : 17 December 2022 20:09:55(UTC)
jonsson01

Sweden   
Joined: 17/12/2022(UTC)
Posts: 5
Location: Stockholms lan, Stockholm
So i just got this 7186 turntable witch does not seem to have been used in a long time (a lot of dust on it)
it didint have the little blue controler so i used a normal blue little switch control box (1 for left right and one button for the little finger ) and it worked albiet its very noisy (guess thats to be expected though) but i had to hold down the directional button didint see the people have to do that in the videos i found online

now to the real question here

i opened up the little house so i could put some oil on the gears
i then figured i should turn it

and i noticed what looked like sparks from the engine is that normal?

kinda looks like a small light

should i replace the brushes ?
is the sparks in the motor area just the engine burning off old dust?
is it normal for it to spark??

all help aprichiated thanks

thanks in advance
Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 18 December 2022 12:55:26(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,126
Location: Paris, France
Hi Jonsson01 (a first name would be ideal)
Welcome to this great forum.

Originally Posted by: jonsson01 Go to Quoted Post
So i just got this 7186 turntable witch does not seem to have been used in a long time (a lot of dust on it)
it didint have the little blue controler so i used a normal blue little switch control box (1 for left right and one button for the little finger ) and it worked albiet its very noisy (guess thats to be expected though) but i had to hold down the directional button didint see the people have to do that in the videos i found online

now to the real question here

i opened up the little house so i could put some oil on the gears
i then figured i should turn it

and i noticed what looked like sparks from the engine is that normal?

kinda looks like a small light

should i replace the brushes ?
is the sparks in the motor area just the engine burning off old dust?
is it normal for it to spark??

all help aprichiated thanks

thanks in advance

The 7186 turntable (TT) is very noisy but a little lubrication may reduce the noise
The 7186 per-se has no lamp inside but its predecessour the 410 NG had one. Here is mine, opened and in operation.
If the brushes are worn out or very dirty then they should be replaced (nominal length is approx 5 mm). Replacement is Märklin E600300.

If the TT was stored for a long period then the collector may need some activity but even when clean, you may see a tiny blue spark around the brushes.

The blue control box you miss does 2 things
- send the 16 VAC to either of the induction coils (sets the direction) to one of the 2 extreme contacts. This can be replicated with a simple SPDT switch
- send a 16 VAC impulse to the contact in the center to unlatch the TT and get-it started to the next track

Although noisy, the mechanism is a piece of art with 2 clutches, a latch arm and an unlatching solenoid.
Cheers
Jean



thanks 2 users liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline Michael4  
#3 Posted : 18 December 2022 14:10:35(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 642
Location: England, South Coast
If the motor sometimes runs on after the 'bridge' has latched is the only adjustment I can make at what I think are the solenoid points?
Offline JohnjeanB  
#4 Posted : 18 December 2022 14:30:19(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,126
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: Michael4 Go to Quoted Post
If the motor sometimes runs on after the 'bridge' has latched is the only adjustment I can make at what I think are the solenoid points?

This is not a normal behavious. Why?
When the latch comes into place, it does a few things
- stops mechanically the transmission IMMEDIATELY preventing it of going past the stop point. The motor may continue on its inertia a little but the clutch takes over.
- cuts the power to the motor

So in your case, the finger latching the transmission (preventing its rotation) may be out of adjustment

7186 Locking Mechanism.png
Cheers
Jean


Offline Michael4  
#5 Posted : 18 December 2022 14:46:49(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 642
Location: England, South Coast
I've had the thing for forty years but have never really investigated it. Using your diagram (thanks!) I'll sit down under a bright light and watch what it does.

(For those in the UK it came off the second hand shelves in Beatties in London...)
Offline jonsson01  
#6 Posted : 18 December 2022 16:16:49(UTC)
jonsson01

Sweden   
Joined: 17/12/2022(UTC)
Posts: 5
Location: Stockholms lan, Stockholm
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Jonsson01 (a first name would be ideal)
Welcome to this great forum.

Originally Posted by: jonsson01 Go to Quoted Post
So i just got this 7186 turntable witch does not seem to have been used in a long time (a lot of dust on it)
it didint have the little blue controler so i used a normal blue little switch control box (1 for left right and one button for the little finger ) and it worked albiet its very noisy (guess thats to be expected though) but i had to hold down the directional button didint see the people have to do that in the videos i found online

now to the real question here

i opened up the little house so i could put some oil on the gears
i then figured i should turn it

and i noticed what looked like sparks from the engine is that normal?

kinda looks like a small light

should i replace the brushes ?
is the sparks in the motor area just the engine burning off old dust?
is it normal for it to spark??

all help aprichiated thanks

thanks in advance

The 7186 turntable (TT) is very noisy but a little lubrication may reduce the noise
The 7186 per-se has no lamp inside but its predecessour the 410 NG had one. Here is mine, opened and in operation.
If the brushes are worn out or very dirty then they should be replaced (nominal length is approx 5 mm). Replacement is Märklin E600300.

If the TT was stored for a long period then the collector may need some activity but even when clean, you may see a tiny blue spark around the brushes.

The blue control box you miss does 2 things
- send the 16 VAC to either of the induction coils (sets the direction) to one of the 2 extreme contacts. This can be replicated with a simple SPDT switch
- send a 16 VAC impulse to the contact in the center to unlatch the TT and get-it started to the next track

Although noisy, the mechanism is a piece of art with 2 clutches, a latch arm and an unlatching solenoid.
Cheers
Jean





Thank you
that answered most of my questions
Saw quite a lot of spark in the engine but that seems to be normal
I figure it just need to be “worn in” again
Tested another old ac lok. from märklin witch haven’t moved in a while and it had some wierd noises witch disaperead after a bit of driving
I guess that’s just normal for these older things?
Offline kiwiAlan  
#7 Posted : 18 December 2022 16:58:07(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,109
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: jonsson01 Go to Quoted Post

Tested another old ac lok. from märklin witch haven’t moved in a while and it had some wierd noises witch disaperead after a bit of driving
I guess that’s just normal for these older things?


That sounds like it probably needs a drop of oil on the motor bearings and the gears. It won't need much at all, just enough to moisten the little sponges on the motor bearings.

Offline jonsson01  
#8 Posted : 20 December 2022 20:27:05(UTC)
jonsson01

Sweden   
Joined: 17/12/2022(UTC)
Posts: 5
Location: Stockholms lan, Stockholm
Ah
Ill try that

Do you know if the 7186 turntable Will run on dc?
Does all older märklin ac engines work with dc?
Offline JohnjeanB  
#9 Posted : 20 December 2022 23:56:46(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,126
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: jonsson01 Go to Quoted Post
Ah
Ill try that

Do you know if the 7186 turntable Will run on dc?
Does all older märklin ac engines work with dc?

Question 1 yes no change needed with the original blue control box.
Question 2 yes in conjunction with diodes (one for each inductor wire but the 2nd one in opposite direction to the first.),replacing the direction relay
Cheers
Jean

Offline jonsson01  
#10 Posted : 21 December 2022 21:02:56(UTC)
jonsson01

Sweden   
Joined: 17/12/2022(UTC)
Posts: 5
Location: Stockholms lan, Stockholm

Question 1 yes no change needed with the original blue control box.



Is this referring to the original 2 button direction controller that is (should be I’m missing mine though )included with the turntable?

Since im missing mine I use 1 normal control box and using the red and green button for directions (on first row) and a red button for the little impulse to the “finger” of the turntable and it works fine

I don’t see why that would not be able to work with16 v DC (assuming the actual engine of the turntable and solenoids can work with DC instead of Ac witch was the question I tried to ask )
Since it works fine with 16v AC

TLDR
Q can I hook up the turntable to 16v DC
Will the solenoids and motor work with Dc?

Q2 i also own an old automatic railroad crossing that was made for Ac
Tried to hook it up to my digital layout by supplying it from the rails (witch is supplied by the new digital system with ms2) but it (from what I’ve read up on and seen myself) too much power and there fore power is shutdown by the ms2 because it senses a power surge (witch I belive is to minimize the damage done by surging currents in an event of a wagon short circuiting something)
Is there. Way to fix this so it can be run in m digital layout?

Very sorry for the very long text of questions (and also ironically enough a long tldr )

/Hampus
Offline JohnjeanB  
#11 Posted : 21 December 2022 22:22:31(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,126
Location: Paris, France
Hi Hampus

Here is the drawing of the 2-button blue control.
7186 control unit.png

It is very simply replaced with on SPDT and one push button
Principle: the SPDT selects the rotation direction and the push button "unlocks" the TT to the next track.

Questions Answers:
- Q1 yes the TT will work with 16 VDC instead of 16VAC. The solenoid current will be a little higher but you are not supposed to push very long on the button.
- Q1a yes you can have digital locos run on the TT in digital
- Q2 connection of an old automatic railroad crossing is OK in digital (a) having a detection section (one isolated rail on both sides of the automatic railroad crossing and (b) connecting the yellow plug of your crossing to the yellow of ANOTHER 16 VAC transformer while its brown is connected to the digital brown (the non-isolated rail)

- the above-suggested connections do not take any power from your MS2 and its supply so it MUST NOT be no shutdown by the MS2

WARNING: NEVER try to use the digital power supply (that feeds your MS2) to feed SIMULTANEOUSLY another circuit (the TT or the crossing) as you will burn your digital system (the track box)
Cheers
Jean
Offline jonsson01  
#12 Posted : 22 December 2022 06:34:32(UTC)
jonsson01

Sweden   
Joined: 17/12/2022(UTC)
Posts: 5
Location: Stockholms lan, Stockholm


Thanks for the great answer
Just one last think to clear up

Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post

WARNING: NEVER try to use the digital power supply (that feeds your MS2) to feed SIMULTANEOUSLY another circuit (the TT or the crossing) as you will burn your digital system (the track box)
Cheers
Jean


Do you mean that the ms2 track box will draw to much power if trying to feed another circuit and burn out?

Also can I feed the old railroad crossing with 16vDc. And use the trackboxe,s zero?
Would that work?

Offline JohnjeanB  
#13 Posted : 22 December 2022 11:48:09(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,126
Location: Paris, France
Hi
Originally Posted by: jonsson01 Go to Quoted Post
Do you mean that the ms2 track box will draw to much power if trying to feed another circuit and burn out?

Also can I feed the old railroad crossing with 16vDc. And use the trackboxe,s zero?
Would that work?

No, this is not a question of power but rather of forcing a high current through the digital drivers (power transistors) that would destroy them if you don't keep the MS2 : Track box power supply dedicated only to feed them.
Yes you can feed the old railroad crossing with 16vDc (separate power supply). And connect the trackboxe,s zero to one of the poles of the other PS Unit.

Cheers
Jean

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