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Offline cookee_nz  
#1 Posted : 08 September 2022 23:06:28(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,844
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Hi all, just looking for feedback here re this video that was posted on our Facebook Group

https://www.facebook.com...malink/5722683381083981/

Most would accept that it does reflect how things would have actually looked, at that time (ERA II), so my question is whether any rules or laws are broken depicting this, in a public forum?

I'm not looking for debate of the underlying issues, nor whether it's "politically correct" or not, just a general consensus on whether this makes people uncomfortable.

Here's a snapshot from the video for those who can't view it. I have blurred the specific images for respect

Perhaps some of our German friends can give an accurate factual response?

Thanks


EpochII-HK-blur.jpg
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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H0
Offline Toosmall  
#2 Posted : 08 September 2022 23:28:21(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 276
Location: Sydney
I was adopted by British Parents, having a half German heritage. About 7 generations ago a very close royal link on my Mum's side of the family. On my Dad's side a religious link caused a family split which caused my Dad's branch to change surname. Other half is German. My Dad was an engineer in WW2 for aircraft bombing my now relatives. Other half's father tried to escape over the Pyrenees and was then a prisoner of war in France for a number of years.

I have no issues with the politics, we have far bigger issues!

The Frontier Wars in Australia which have been covered up make WW2 look like a Sunday picnic on a percentage per capita basis.
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Offline Gregor  
#3 Posted : 08 September 2022 23:28:50(UTC)
Gregor

Netherlands   
Joined: 17/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 980
Location: Netherlands
Having visited Auschwitz last week, this indeed makes me uncomfortable. Historically correct or not, I feel that whenever these symbols are shown, it should be made clear simultaneously what kind of disgusting regime these symbols represent. A nice scene with running trains does not bring across that message.

Best regards,
Gregor

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Offline Dave Banks  
#4 Posted : 08 September 2022 23:57:02(UTC)
Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 964
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
In the past few decades, though, several European countries have banned displays of the swastika, which was notoriously usurped by the Nazi Party of Germany and came to signify all that was hateful, racist and tyrannical about its ideology.

Symbols used by the Nazis have been banned in Germany since August 1945, first by the Allied Command that took control in the aftermath of World War II and, later, by the Federal Republic of Germany in 1949.

But the re-emergence in recent years of countless ultra-right, far-right, fascist and racist movements has spurred several nations to outlaw the swastika or other symbols of despotic regimes.

The hammer and sickle icon, for example, which came to represent the totalitarian regime of the Soviet Union, is illegal, along with the swastika, in several countries: Hungary (1993), Lithuania (2008), Poland (2009), Ukraine (2015). There are exclusions for educational, historical, artistic and journalistic purposes.

France's penal code bans displays of symbols, uniforms and insignia that have been utilized by organizations responsible for crimes against humanity.

On your layout you do what you want. It is a part of history that will live with us forever & if your modeling that era & have Military trains on your layout then you are proto typically correct in displaying that symbol.

But others may not appreciate what you have on display. I have one WW2 "Axis" Powers set of Artitec military vehicles on lowbed wagons. One is a half track & has the symbol on the bonnet of the vehicle in red & white

circle but the the actual swastika symbol in black is missing. I have deliberated for years now on whether to put it on or not. I still remain undecided. My two cents worth.
D.A.Banks
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Offline mike c  
#5 Posted : 09 September 2022 01:55:55(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,457
Location: Montreal, QC
I have no problem with a layout with such a theme, on the condition that the owner permits me to fly my radio controlled 1/87 Lancs and B-17s and target his layout.

Respectfully

Mike C
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Offline BenP  
#6 Posted : 09 September 2022 04:22:30(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 145
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
I questioned this display video on the Facebook page, but received a dismissive response. Minimally, it seems unnecessarily callous. Others are understandibly offended. Facebook probably does not allow this, rejecting the 'historic' argument. Why would someone go there?
Digital M track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories.
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Offline Br502362  
#7 Posted : 09 September 2022 07:22:40(UTC)
Br502362


Joined: 05/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 657
Location: Finland
Hi,

I wonder how Chinas flag doesn't make us uncomfortable.

Great Chinese Famine
It was created by their own communist government and within tree years tens of millions died.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine

Åke
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Offline Mark5  
#8 Posted : 09 September 2022 09:19:14(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,218
Location: Montreal, Canada
it may make people feel uncomfortable and maybe that is a good thing. It was very awful conflict and there were atrocities by all sides in the conflict.
There are no "moral victors" in a bloodbath: Hiroshima, Dresden or Birkenau. And yet here we are with more "wars and rumours of wars" to this day.

If we whitewash history and pretend these things do not exist, then we stand to repeat the fateful errors of our not too distant past.
Display of images is all a question of context and has historical value. The rules surrounding these things have not hindered humanity from continuing in its folly. The fact that we do not talk about and avoid taboo issues might be one reason we repeat them. I don't want to get political here on the forum, but I do think you should discuss them with friends and others in appropriate contexts.

That is all to say, just as when you encounter or write a powerful story, identify the characters clearly and trust your reader to determine the nuances.

Peace grows from within, only the appearance of peace can be imposed from the outside.

DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam, so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
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Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 09 September 2022 10:09:24(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,628
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post
Most would accept that it does reflect how things would have actually looked, at that time (ERA II), so my question is whether any rules or laws are broken depicting this, in a public forum?
AFAIK German laws do not allow Swastikas in this context.
But Fakebook is a US company with European HQ in Ireland. Therefore German laws probably do not apply unless the content is posted by people in Germany.

I would not show Swastikas on my layout and I will not give "likes" to such videos.

There are regional differences, of course. US is more liberal with respect to Swastikas, Germany is a bit more liberal with respect to naked nipples.
It would be fine for me if forum/group rules would ban display of any Nazi symbols and any naked nipples
This forum is about model railroads and all contents should be suitable for children.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline river6109  
#10 Posted : 09 September 2022 12:04:14(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,998
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
I think it lies in the hands of the producer, what is his or her objective and it is obvious the flag of the Swastika and what does it mean today ?
is it historical, is it meaningful, has it got merits and what spirit does it add to the model train world ?, we display things we don't understand and if it was with intent what's the purpose? to celebrate Glory ?, to represent past ideology ? or to remind us of war without its Glory, to represent a fictitious model war train from years ago.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline bph  
#11 Posted : 09 September 2022 14:35:15(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 558
Personally, I don't think its the best thing to do.

And posting it on this forum might also be in conflict with Swedish law (as I understand it, the forum itself is hosted on a server located in Sweden).
in Sweden, public display of those symbols might be considered Incitement against an ethnic group or Disorderly conduct.

so the best thing is probably to avoid posting those symbols here, and preferable also on the linked Facebook group. At least as a minimum have symbols in the photos blurred.
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H0
Offline H0  
#12 Posted : 09 September 2022 15:23:44(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,628
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post
At least as a minimum have symbols in the photos blurred.
We are talking about videos.
Even era V locos are shown with era II Nazi symbols in the background.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline rhfil  
#13 Posted : 09 September 2022 15:30:00(UTC)
rhfil

United States   
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 227
Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
Those who are uncomfortable with the display, do you have the same problems with movies about the period showing the symbols? It is an accurate representation of the time and should be seen as such and nothing more. To read more into it reflects on the reader more than the modeler.
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Offline H0  
#14 Posted : 09 September 2022 15:50:00(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,628
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: rhfil Go to Quoted Post
It is an accurate representation of the time and should be seen as such and nothing more.
When those flags show up in the presentation of an era V loco then they do not represent the time of the loco.

The accurate representation of an inhuman dictatorship still is the representation of an inhuman dictatorship. Everybody decides what they want to represent on their layout. Not my cup of tea.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Mark5  
#15 Posted : 09 September 2022 15:53:14(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,218
Location: Montreal, Canada
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post
At least as a minimum have symbols in the photos blurred.
We are talking about videos. Even era V locos are shown with era II Nazi symbols in the background.


I do agree that the clash of eras, especially in this context, is more than a bit off-putting, however, the fact that this issue has generated enough of us to care about posting and sharing our thoughts about it, may have something of value in its discussion of history.

Banning and censorship are a slippery slope, imho.
Here is Canada if you refuse to use "they" "he" or "she" 'correctly' when speaking of a student or your own child and the child finds it offensive, you can lose your job or put in jail.
What kind of madness is this?

If you will allow to post this link for your perusal or refusal to click:
https://christianconcern...sgendering-his-daughter/

I do appreciate those who do not want to see the symbols and their concerns.
My father and mother and family suffered under Nazi occupation in Holland,
however I am very grateful for all the story tellers who shared their traumas through novels and films.
I will stop here lest we go the way of Godwin's law.

Peace.
Mark
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam, so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
Offline marklinist5999  
#16 Posted : 09 September 2022 16:34:54(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Michigan, Troy
Rest assured that Facebook/Meta would have flagged and removed the video if Meta or Mark Z felt it was antisemetic. The symbol was used first by India, and the 3rd. reich adopted it as an entirley different meaning.
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#17 Posted : 09 September 2022 23:39:03(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,432
Location: New Zealand
Most of you know I have 1 Gauge trains and I have been wanting to get some 1:35 tanks that could be used on a military train. For the reasons expressed in this thread, I don't want to consider using WWII era German tanks even if they have no swastikas on them simply because of the connotations of that era of tanks and tank types. I don't want the chance for anyone to get upset over any association with World War II. The WWII tanks are more widely available here than the later current day Leopards.

I've purchased some Leopard 2 tanks which will be panted in standard NATO colours with the Maltese Cross on them.
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Offline Toosmall  
#18 Posted : 10 September 2022 00:51:09(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 276
Location: Sydney
If one is a bit stressed over how to display tanks. Move forward to 2022. Millions of dollars worth of tank destroyed by a hundred K smart missile, which have also been adapted for knocking out aircraft and other infrastructure.

I think every single military entity will be rethinking military assets.

Display what you want to display and have your informed reasons.

Australia has had the Frontier Wars which have been covered up to the nth degree. The vast majority of the population is ignorant one way or another. Weapons including disease warfare needs to be brought out into the open.
Offline river6109  
#19 Posted : 10 September 2022 02:37:48(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,998
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
I personally feel the displayed video lacks power, actions and emotions and in my opinion has failed the criteria to represent history, it’s just a watered down version of seeking attention by adding objects of no historical value , an ill fated attempt with no design admirations, more thoughts could have been applied to bring out the true meaning
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline river6109  
#20 Posted : 10 September 2022 03:00:22(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,998
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: rhfil Go to Quoted Post
Those who are uncomfortable with the display, do you have the same problems with movies about the period showing the symbols? It is an accurate representation of the time and should be seen as such and nothing more. To read more into it reflects on the reader more than the modeler.

LOL The modeller needs a few more lessons how to represent history, a totally failed attempt to recreate a scene from a bygone era, it lacks all form of attention to detail
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
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Offline phils2um  
#21 Posted : 10 September 2022 06:42:26(UTC)
phils2um

United States   
Joined: 12/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 160
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
Rest assured that Facebook/Meta would have flagged and removed the video if Meta or Mark Z felt it was antisemetic. The symbol was used first by India, and the 3rd. reich adopted it as an entirley different meaning.


I think Mark Z will do/allow anything that will enrich himself irregardless of the content. Just my opinion.
But enough of politics, this is a model RR forum.
Phil S.
Offline PJMärklin  
#22 Posted : 10 September 2022 11:42:50(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,106
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
… Here is Canada if you refuse to use "they" "he" or "she" 'correctly' when speaking of a student or your own child and the child finds it offensive, you can lose your job or put in jail.
What kind of madness is this?


https://www.dailymail.co...ouns-JAILED-Ireland.html

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Offline Hannes Porsche  
#23 Posted : 10 September 2022 17:54:20(UTC)
Hannes Porsche

South Africa   
Joined: 08/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 52
Location: Western Cape, South Africa
So there we have it.!!!!!
Politics in its purest form.
Just imagine what pains Marklins 2022 loko model No. 39662 is goiing to cause.

JUST CUT IT OUT.
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Offline Mr. Ron  
#24 Posted : 10 September 2022 20:43:18(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 261
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
I agree with rhfil. If it is OK on the big screen, I don't question it on a home layout. In San Francisco, I have seen a Nazi symbol displayed in a window with no explanation. Cannot tell what the motive is, but there will always be something that someone will see as objectionable. Freedom gives us the right to express ourselves in any way we want but we must accept the consequences.
Actually, what about German WWII ship and airplane models? If the layout were in Germany, I can see where it might be a touchy subject.
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Offline Minok  
#25 Posted : 13 September 2022 16:52:48(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,261
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Seems a bit much on the flag density, feels a bit over the top and suspect. I don't like it but I'd just ignore it and move on.
What is acceptable or not is all perspective and changes over time.
The genocide committed by the US Government in the 1800's doesn't cause the US flag to be seen with derision I suspect. The imperial abuses by Britain over the centuries doesn't affect that flag. The Japanese flag is fine, as is the Soviet Union's and they have some pretty bad history as well. I don't see a categorical issue with the use of the flag as such.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
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Offline marklinist5999  
#26 Posted : 13 September 2022 17:12:37(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Michigan, Troy
Minok, do you mean the murders of American Indians? That wasn't one sided, and was quite different.
Offline H0  
#27 Posted : 13 September 2022 17:19:26(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,628
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post
I'm not looking for debate of the underlying issues, nor whether it's "politically correct" or not, just a general consensus on whether this makes people uncomfortable.
I think this is no topic where the majority should decide. If it makes any person uncomfortable then it should better be avoided.

Let's transfer the question to the US: Would you model restaurants with "White only" signs? Would you model KKK gatherings with burning crosses? Would you show confederated flags and General Custer statues? Would you model white cops kneeing on black arrested persons?
Any of these will make some persons uncomfortable.

Everybody decides what they show on their layouts. Maybe consider which impression your layout will make on the beholder.
Cookee cares about the feelings of other people - and I think that's a good thing.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Minok  
#28 Posted : 13 September 2022 18:27:39(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,261
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
Minok, do you mean the murders of American Indians? That wasn't one sided, and was quite different.


Well one side was almost completely eliminated, so it seems mostly one sided, or at least 0.95 sided.

Look up "Trail of Tears" as one example.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
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My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
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Offline Goofy  
#29 Posted : 13 September 2022 19:13:16(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,597
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post
Most would accept that it does reflect how things would have actually looked, at that time (ERA II), so my question is whether any rules or laws are broken depicting this, in a public forum?
AFAIK German laws do not allow Swastikas in this context.
But Fakebook is a US company with European HQ in Ireland. Therefore German laws probably do not apply unless the content is posted by people in Germany.

I would not show Swastikas on my layout and I will not give "likes" to such videos.

There are regional differences, of course. US is more liberal with respect to Swastikas, Germany is a bit more liberal with respect to naked nipples.
It would be fine for me if forum/group rules would ban display of any Nazi symbols and any naked nipples
This forum is about model railroads and all contents should be suitable for children.


People fools!
I know myself that swastikas are symbol of the sun and did created for thousands of years ago in India.
Naked nipples are not genitalia so in USA people overthere are nuts about things. LOL
Model railer like to build up model railway to equal as prototype.
Even war collectors do same way with diorama.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline Copenhagen  
#30 Posted : 14 September 2022 15:39:53(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 244
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
To the post above: but even a fool would acknowledge the huge difference between the symbol being used on a hindu ornament and on a nazi flag.
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Offline Purellum  
#31 Posted : 14 September 2022 16:29:09(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,449
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

With the Russian markings on their material in mind, during the recent events in Ukraine, can we even run Märklin Z? Confused

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
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Offline Goofy  
#32 Posted : 14 September 2022 17:18:30(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,597
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
To the post above: but even a fool would acknowledge the huge difference between the symbol being used on a hindu ornament and on a nazi flag.


Swastika present in two ways.
Clockwise and counterclockwise.
Nazist swastika are copy.
In fact hindu was not alone by use swastika symbol.
Swastika is mentioned for first time in 1866 for swedish dictionary and i believe it´s same for other states.
Military use difference symbols and many railroader use it too.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline Copenhagen  
#33 Posted : 14 September 2022 17:40:28(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 244
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Goofy on a rant again...
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Offline PMPeter  
#34 Posted : 14 September 2022 17:55:37(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,218
Location: Port Moody, BC
Another thread heading for a locking.
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Offline ccranium  
#35 Posted : 14 September 2022 19:38:32(UTC)
ccranium


Joined: 30/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 27
Location: Seattle area
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
Another thread heading for a locking.

Please

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Offline kimballthurlow  
#36 Posted : 15 September 2022 05:12:46(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,337
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: ccranium Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
Another thread heading for a locking.

Please



Do you mean "Yes please"?

Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline Mark5  
#37 Posted : 15 September 2022 09:30:23(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,218
Location: Montreal, Canada
A good way to conclude this thread (or continue it elsewhere) might be for all of us to think about Godwin's law.
Extreme comparisons usually end up with very little reason.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Peace to you all.
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam, so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
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Offline cookee_nz  
#38 Posted : 15 September 2022 10:21:58(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,844
Location: Paremata, Wellington
In light of the direction this may take and requests to lock, it's probably run its course.

Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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