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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#1 Posted : 26 July 2022 19:05:48(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 3,188
Location: CA, USA
Hi everyone,

I'm taking an interest in the TEE Bavaria, but I'm struggling to grasp a few things as they apply to my 1:87 scale universe. Any advise is welcome!

I have the Marklin TEE bavaria set, number 26557. Its lovely :)

I also now have the 43859 car set, also lovely :)

What I don't understand is why one has a swiss dining car, and the other a german dining car? Did the train swap dining cars mid route at the border of germany and switzerland, or did the dining car travel the whole way though? (I know locomotives swapped, or went via diesel)

Last question- can I run a DB E103 with the 43859 set somewhat prototypically? Or was the DB leg diesel-only?

Thanks in advance for any insights!
FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
Offline Unholz  
#2 Posted : 26 July 2022 21:40:16(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,332
Location: Switzerland
A German dining car was certainly not typical in the TEE Bavaria after the SBB/NS diesel trainsets RAm/DE had to be replaced (except perhaps for a short period in the year 1971). The standard dining car in this consist was one of the ten SBB (although German-built) WRm type "Donauwörth". One of these red vehicles received the TEE livery especially for use in the Bavaria and normally ran in the train, except when maintenance or repairs were due.

The dining car traveled the entire way from Zürich to Munich.

More information and pictures here: http://www.welt-der-mode...ahn.com/tee-bavaria.html
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#3 Posted : 27 July 2022 01:09:34(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 3,188
Location: CA, USA
Interesting- thanks! In my haste I realized I confused the lounge car in the 43859 set with a second dining car. My mistake.

That clears the mystery, and perhaps mine will run as a longer Oktoberfest special/longer train :)

The next mystery is this shot of the E103, which shouldn't fit into the equation, but seems to be a historic train set of some sort?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/126584084@N05/30147760240
https://www.flickr.com/photos/126584084@N05/15046474889



FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
Offline mike c  
#4 Posted : 27 July 2022 05:22:31(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,443
Location: Montreal, QC
The diesel RAm was involved in an accident in February 1971. The section of track involved was closed for roughly a week following the accident.
In the schedule, the RAm (501) was replaced by a consist pulled by a DB 210, made up of an Avüm (Avmz) 111 and an Apüm (Apmz) 121 along with an ARDüm (ARDmz) 106. The other trainset (RAm 502) continued to be used for a few weeks, before it too was replaced by a locomotive pulled consist in early March 1971.

I don't know whether the second consist (Ersatz for RAm 502) also had an ARDmz or whether it might have been a WRmz132. I know that I have seen a few photos of the train with a red DSG Speisewagen.

SSG, which had been operating the food service on the RAm trainsets was not happy that DSG was now providing the service and SBB and DB decided that SSG would resume the food service and with that in mind, the SBB WRm Donauwörth were put into service, with one of the cars being painted in TEE colours and seeing it's first official use in Fall 1971. I don't know when the "Bavaria" was downsized to a single train, so that the same consist ran back and forth from Zurich on the same day (as opposed to having one train going each way per day with overnights in each terminus). From Fall 1972, the Swiss segment was run by Re 4/4I painted in TEE colours.

So, the 43859 represents the consist during the weeks following the accident and the 26557 represents the consist between September 1972 and 1977 when the TEE Bavaria was downgraded to a 2 class D-Zug.

I don't have the 43859, so I am not certain whether the destination signs are the same direction as the 26557 or whether it is for the opposite direction.

Regards

Mike C
Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#5 Posted : 27 July 2022 06:34:07(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 3,188
Location: CA, USA
Interesting intel- thanks Mike! Another mystery solved

I can confirm the destination boards are for the same direction, which is nice.

The fantasy run will be all 6 cars pulled by the Re 4/4I or E103, otherwise I'll probably shuffle them as two consists.

So the last and probably most difficult question- would the DB 210 have pulled the set all the way into Switzerland, or a swap at the border despite diesel power?

Fun stuff!

FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
Offline Unholz  
#6 Posted : 27 July 2022 06:58:49(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,332
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: 5HorizonsRR Go to Quoted Post

So the last and probably most difficult question- would the DB 210 have pulled the set all the way into Switzerland, or a swap at the border despite diesel power?

A DB 210 all the way into Switzerland? 99,9 percent unlikely in those days. Wink No, at least one swap at the border must have occurred always, either at Lindau on the border of Lake Constance or then at St. Margrethen (transition SBB/ÖBB).
Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 27 July 2022 11:13:03(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,603
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: 5HorizonsRR Go to Quoted Post
The next mystery is this shot of the E103, which shouldn't fit into the equation, but seems to be a historic train set of some sort?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/126584084@N05/30147760240
https://www.flickr.com/photos/126584084@N05/15046474889
Note that these pictures were taken in 2009, long after the end of regular TEE services. It is a museum train.

BTW: There is no "E" in "BR 103".
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#8 Posted : 27 July 2022 17:34:05(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 3,188
Location: CA, USA
Originally Posted by: Unholz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: 5HorizonsRR Go to Quoted Post

So the last and probably most difficult question- would the DB 210 have pulled the set all the way into Switzerland, or a swap at the border despite diesel power?

A DB 210 all the way into Switzerland? 99,9 percent unlikely in those days. Wink No, at least one swap at the border must have occurred always, either at Lindau on the border of Lake Constance or then at St. Margrethen (transition SBB/ÖBB).


Thanks! This will keep my swiss loco fleet busy then :)

FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#9 Posted : 27 July 2022 17:48:20(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 3,188
Location: CA, USA
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: 5HorizonsRR Go to Quoted Post
The next mystery is this shot of the E103, which shouldn't fit into the equation, but seems to be a historic train set of some sort?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/126584084@N05/30147760240
https://www.flickr.com/photos/126584084@N05/15046474889
Note that these pictures were taken in 2009, long after the end of regular TEE services. It is a museum train.

BTW: There is no "E" in "BR 103".


Thanks Tom! I saw it was a museum train, interesting note on the E vs BR. Details I still need to learn!

FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
Offline mike c  
#10 Posted : 27 July 2022 19:29:37(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,443
Location: Montreal, QC
The DB 210/216 was used between Lindau and Munich. The line from Lindau to St Margrethen was electrified. Originally trains between Lindau and St Margrethen were operated by the OBB. An agreement was reached for the SBB to equip a handful of locomotives with pantograph for the German and Austrian norms, so that the SBB locomotives could pull the train all the way to Lindau, thus sparing the requirement to change locomotives twice over such a short distance. AFAIR the SBB locomotives were operated by Austrian crews between St Margrethen and Lindau.

As far as the E vs BR, the original standard was that electric locomotives were identified as E followed by the class. At some point, a new numbering system was put into place where electric locomotives were to be identified as Class 1XX and diesels were assigned Class 2XX. At that point, the notations E (Electric) and V (Diesel) were replaced by the simple notation BR (Baureihe) XXX, so E03 became Class 103 and E10 became Class 110. Diesels were more complicated to renumber. For example, the V200 became the BR 220, but the V160 became the BR 216, the V164 became BR 218, etc.

V=Brennkraft?

Regards

Mike C
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#11 Posted : 27 July 2022 21:14:33(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 3,188
Location: CA, USA
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
The DB 210/216 was used between Lindau and Munich. The line from Lindau to St Margrethen was electrified. Originally trains between Lindau and St Margrethen were operated by the OBB. An agreement was reached for the SBB to equip a handful of locomotives with pantograph for the German and Austrian norms, so that the SBB locomotives could pull the train all the way to Lindau, thus sparing the requirement to change locomotives twice over such a short distance. AFAIR the SBB locomotives were operated by Austrian crews between St Margrethen and Lindau.

Mike C


Wow! What model of SBB loco(s) got the pantograph swap? That is another bit I've never heard of
FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
Offline mike c  
#12 Posted : 28 July 2022 20:04:50(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,443
Location: Montreal, QC
Over the years, I believe the list included the following:

Ae 4/7 (numbers not known)
Re 4/4II (11196-11201) Various numbers at different periods
Re 4/4I 10033/10034 (From 1972-1977) in TEE colours
Re 4/4I 10033/1003X in green (not certain if second was 10034)

If you look at your 29557, you will note that the Re 4/4I has two different pantograph (blades). The narrow one is the standard SBB one while the wider one is the one for the OBB and DB networks.

Regards

Mike C
Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 28 July 2022 20:11:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,603
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
As far as the E vs BR, the original standard was that electric locomotives were identified as E followed by the class.
In era 3, E xx denoted locos for standard voltage (15 kV AC) while E 1xx was used for DC locos.
E 191 was a DC loco while E 91 was an AC loco.
BR E 03 from era III became BR 103 in era IV - this is an AC loco.
E 103 never existed, but would have been a DC loco.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#14 Posted : 28 July 2022 21:49:08(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 3,188
Location: CA, USA
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
Over the years, I believe the list included the following:

Ae 4/7 (numbers not known)
Re 4/4II (11196-11201) Various numbers at different periods
Re 4/4I 10033/10034 (From 1972-1977) in TEE colours
Re 4/4I 10033/1003X in green (not certain if second was 10034)

If you look at your 29557, you will note that the Re 4/4I has two different pantograph (blades). The narrow one is the standard SBB one while the wider one is the one for the OBB and DB networks.

Regards

Mike C


Thanks mike!



FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
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