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Offline tomdakl  
#1 Posted : 24 June 2022 03:08:03(UTC)
tomdakl

New Zealand   
Joined: 30/09/2019(UTC)
Posts: 20
Location: Titirangi, NZ
Hi All,

Earlier this week I got my Rheinpfeil BR E 10.12 (Märklin 39126) Loko.
Beautiful model, but when I tried the digitally controlled pantographs, I got the sound but no movement, i.e. no lowering or raising of the pantos Confused

Now, we all know that these pantographs a fragile, but I have a whole number of loks (BR 103, ICE 4, ...) where these work with no issues.
On this model however BOTH were dead on arrival, and yes, I was following the instructions in the booklet to the dotMellow.
All other digital functions on the engine working perfectly.

Did anyone on the forum have similar experiences with this model?

To make matters worse, on this engine the pantographs are not available as spare parts, return to service only.
Which is a particular pleasure if you live in New Zealand.

Grateful for any observations or pointers.

Thanks
Thomas
Offline mike c  
#2 Posted : 24 June 2022 03:54:13(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,443
Location: Montreal, QC
By sound, I trust that you mean that you hear the piezo motor, but the pantograph is not moving.
The pantograph must be released slightly in order for the function to work, as the lock on the pantograph still is in place. Once the pantograph is free, it should then respond to the wire that controls it's lift or descent. The system is a little different on the scissors pantograph vs the single arm ones.

Is there a Maerklin dealer close to you where they can inspect it?

Was it bought from an authorized dealer? If yes, I would inform them that it arrived not fully operational and request a replacement.
If they have no replacement, you have the option of returning it for a refund and locating a replacement elsewhere.
If that is not an option, you will have to return it for service. The first step in that would be an email to service(at)Marklin.de.

If it was bought from a auction website, it may not have been fully new and somebody may have sold you defective goods, in which case you may be able to claim a refund via the site.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline tomdakl  
#3 Posted : 24 June 2022 04:44:08(UTC)
tomdakl

New Zealand   
Joined: 30/09/2019(UTC)
Posts: 20
Location: Titirangi, NZ
Hi Mike.

Sounds: The model has a build in aufbügeln/abbügeln sound whenever you switch the pantos. Your reply made me turn off the volume (CV 63=0) and no, I could not hear any piezo's.

The model is brand new from a MHI dealer, so warranties apply and the whole matter is a hassle, not a worry.
Unfortunately that dealer is about 20,000 km away :-) thus I'm first looking if there is anything I obviously missed.

Thanks for your response.

Thomas
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 24 June 2022 09:51:27(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,603
Location: DE-NW
Hi!

They stopped using piezo motors long ago. Current locos should have servo motors for the pantographs.
I haven't seen the inside of a BR 10.12 with motorized pantographs yet.

The old piezo motors were mounted on the loco board and the pantograph mechanism mechanically locked in.
But maybe nowadays the motor is mounted in the body and connects electrically with a spring mechanism.

Thomas,
Did you open the loco and have a look?
Maybe something got out of place during the 20,000 km journey.

I just checked the manual: it seems there are permanent wire connections between loco board and body. So do not look for bent springs, but look for loose wires or wires that have been squeezed between body and frame.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline mario54i  
#5 Posted : 24 June 2022 10:09:08(UTC)
mario54i

Italy   
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 260
Location: Torino,
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post


They stopped using piezo motors long ago.


I know only BR103 39579 using piezo motors. Are there others ?
Thanks

Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 24 June 2022 11:20:13(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,603
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mario54i Go to Quoted Post
I know only BR103 39579 using piezo motors. Are there others?
Sorry, Thomas, for going off-topic.
There were at least two BR 152 with piezo motors (39340, 39352). There was a TVT (39970) and a dining coach (42973) with pantographs that used piezo motors. It seems the 49961 also had one.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline PJMärklin  
#7 Posted : 24 June 2022 11:30:46(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,093
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: tomdakl Go to Quoted Post
Hi All,

Earlier this week I got my Rheinpfeil BR E 10.12 (Märklin 39126) Loko.
Beautiful model, but when I tried the digitally controlled pantographs, I got the sound but no movement, i.e. no lowering or raising of the pantos Confused

Now, we all know that these pantographs a fragile, but I have a whole number of loks (BR 103, ICE 4, ...) where these work with no issues.
On this model however BOTH were dead on arrival, and yes, I was following the instructions in the booklet to the dotMellow.
All other digital functions on the engine working perfectly....

Thanks
Thomas

Hi Thomas,

I am sorry for your disappointment.

Over the last four decades I have experienced such Märklin events with extreme rarity, so I do regret your encounter.

I too have an affinity for the Rhein locos, in my case the contemporary Märklin 39121 and 39112 which I
much enjoy on my layout.

Originally Posted by: tomdakl Go to Quoted Post
To make matters worse, on this engine the pantographs are not available as spare parts, return to service only.
Which is a particular pleasure if you live in New Zealand....Thomas

Being a fellow antipodean, I share your costs and concern.

Such is the tyranny of distance, but in the long run over the years, on the balance, it turns out much much
better for us than the local situation.

I hope it all works out for youSmile

PJ

Offline cookee_nz  
#8 Posted : 25 June 2022 01:24:20(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,817
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: tomdakl Go to Quoted Post
Hi Mike.

Sounds: The model has a build in aufbügeln/abbügeln sound whenever you switch the pantos. Your reply made me turn off the volume (CV 63=0) and no, I could not hear any piezo's.

The model is brand new from a MHI dealer, so warranties apply and the whole matter is a hassle, not a worry.
Unfortunately that dealer is about 20,000 km away :-) thus I'm first looking if there is anything I obviously missed.

Thanks for your response.

Thomas


If the body is easily removed, then given our location it could be worth a quick inspection just to rule out something dislodged in transport, although with both Pantos being independent this would seem unusual. This is how they are meant to function... (start at 2:11)



I understand you might be reluctant to risk voiding the warranty but I doubt removing the body would do this, you have to be able to maintain it after all but if any doubt, you could first register the fault with your dealer so that it is on file, and then ask their advice, in particular whether they have heard of similar issues, and perhaps they could seek advice from Märklin Service on your behalf explaining the situation re your location etc.

I believe Dion ex-Toot Toot still undertakes repairs for his former business, but I'm not sure how Märklin handles warranty repairs (reimbursement) for a Dealer who did not actually sell the model. It's possible, given the cost of shipping back to the original dealer that it may be more economical to pay a local authorised repairer to sort it for you?

I would expect if any parts are required that they could still get those under warranty with their next shipment to save postage costs leaving you just the labour, unless they get a reimbursement for that also. It's a possible option to follow.

There is also Phil Fedorenko down here in Newlands (Train Technology). He is still listed on the Märklin Website as a NZ Dealer under the Store Locator. Phil is very experienced on Digital but is also very busy with his main business so whether he would be be able to assist, (and in what timeframe) you'd have to check with him.

I'm interested to know the mechanics behind the function. My Catenary Maintenance Railcar 39970 is quite a bit older and uses an impossibly thin nylon thread to lower the Panto, it raises itself under the spring bias. I have checked a few images and videos but can't see any thread on your model, not to say it isn't there but I'd like to know how it works.

If it's a new innovation, there is often a promotional video showing how it works such as this one for the original version on the 103 almost 20 years ago (old but still informative).



Hope this all helps. If you do remove the body, please add some photos of the internals. You may also be able to see something further when you operate the Panto control.

Cheers

Cookee
Wellington
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline tomdakl  
#9 Posted : 25 June 2022 01:25:35(UTC)
tomdakl

New Zealand   
Joined: 30/09/2019(UTC)
Posts: 20
Location: Titirangi, NZ
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
...
Thomas,
Did you open the loco and have a look?
Maybe something got out of place during the 20,000 km journey.

I just checked the manual: it seems there are permanent wire connections between loco board and body. So do not look for bent springs, but look for loose wires or wires that have been squeezed between body and frame.


Yes, I did open it up and the wiring looks ok.
Fortunately Märklin did not solder the wires in place. They have nice connectors.

IMG_4492.JPG

Looking at the servo's they have the expected 3 wires going to them.
Then there are two super thin silver/white lines going nowhere.
IMG_4495.JPGIMG_4496.JPG
They look like they originate from the servo arm, on both sides Confused . Any idea what they are?

I connected the engine up while open and issues the panto's up/down command from the CS3.
No movement anywhere, (especially on what looks like the servo arm) but the sounds were playing.

I'll be in Europe next month, so a visit to the dealer is one of the next steps.

Cheers,
Thomas
Offline cookee_nz  
#10 Posted : 25 June 2022 01:36:44(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,817
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Ah, you'd added the photos while I was posting my comment.

I believe the disconnected nylon threads may be the issue. Is there a small hole above the servo arm where those could go up through the roof and attach to the Panto?

On my one, the thread is relaxed allowing the Panto to raise, and the thread pulls it back down. For transport, the Panto is meant to be in the raised position, and then lowered by hand. There's a spring that the thread goes through to take up the slack. Kind hard to explain but I'm not sure your model uses the same design.

Possibly there are two threads one to raise and one to lower but that's just a guess.

I see you are heading back to Europe so hand-delivery seems the best option. A good dealer should just swap it out if he has stock and then he can deal with the repair. Probably still be helpful to him to know to expect you.

Are there any notes in the instructions about how to prepare the Pantos for packing/shipping?

This is how the thread looks in mine - note the 'motor' is on the chassis, the cam for the panto is mounted in the body and engages when reassembled (photo courtesy Ross Stewart Australia)

Ross-linkage.jpg
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline tomdakl  
#11 Posted : 25 June 2022 02:06:23(UTC)
tomdakl

New Zealand   
Joined: 30/09/2019(UTC)
Posts: 20
Location: Titirangi, NZ
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post
Ah, you'd added the photos while I was posting my comment.

I believe the disconnected nylon threads may be the issue. Is there a small hole above the servo arm where those could go up through the roof and attach to the Panto?
....


Hi Stephen, I was going to go "Snap!" as well :-)

Agreed, they missed the install of these threads, probably also the setup of the servos and I will let the "dealer" "deal" with it. BigGrin
How that passed the "Ausgangs Qualitätssicherung" at Märklin, I will not speculate on.

There are 2 relevant points in the instructions:
  • extend the pantographs before locking them in place when packing the engine. Which is consistent with your description of the thread lowering the panto.
  • The pantos on this model are not repairable except in the service center. Which means I will leave my fingers off that, given a perfectly good warranty

Thanks for the video link on the piezo engine and the snapshot from Ross above. Paints the picture.

And yes, the dealer in Austria got a 132MB video of what did not work immediately after the unboxing and are expecting a return/visit. No problems with them.

Mistakes and faults happen. It is still a nice model.

Cheers Thomas
Offline Goofy  
#12 Posted : 25 June 2022 07:27:47(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,579
Originally Posted by: tomdakl Go to Quoted Post


Yes, I did open it up and the wiring looks ok.
Fortunately Märklin did not solder the wires in place. They have nice connectors.

IMG_4492.JPG

Looking at the servo's they have the expected 3 wires going to them.
Then there are two super thin silver/white lines going nowhere.
IMG_4495.JPGIMG_4496.JPG
They look like they originate from the servo arm, on both sides Confused . Any idea what they are?

I connected the engine up while open and issues the panto's up/down command from the CS3.
No movement anywhere, (especially on what looks like the servo arm) but the sounds were playing.

I'll be in Europe next month, so a visit to the dealer is one of the next steps.

Cheers,
Thomas


Those two thin transparent plastic is to connect the pantograph!!!
Talk about bad service by Märklin staff!!!
And Märklinist are saying factory Märklin test all models before the train models leaves the factory...Huh

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Online JohnjeanB  
#13 Posted : 25 June 2022 15:22:44(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,120
Location: Paris, France
Hi Thomas

I have this great model and it is working like a charm BUT in the users manual, it says YOU MUST unlock the pantographs before first use.
If you didn't no harm is done but it won't work.
DANGER: If they are already unlocked but maintained low by the (servo I guess) then you may damage it. So be careful and position them up (by digital command) before unlocking them.
Page 2 of manual shows how to avoid lifting the pantograph by its extremities
Sans titre.png

Page 3 of manual says:
Note: Before running the locomotive for the first time, the
pantographs must be unlocked by hand. The pantograph
flexes upwards on its own in the upper position.
When packing the locomotive, always make sure that the
pantographs have been raised electronically and then you
can lower them by hand and lock them in place.


PS I am glad Märklin stopped using piezo motors (10 years ago I think). I have 6 of them on the Turmtriebwagen and on the former Ardelt crane and at least 2 of them are not working good. Issue: rapid wear on the aluminum nose.
My 2 cents worth
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
marshalling yard
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Offline Goofy  
#14 Posted : 25 June 2022 16:09:28(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,579
But it´s not real problem about TS locomotive.
Did you even noticed his pictures inside of the locomotive?
There is transparent plastic wire that are not retrofitted to the pantographs!!
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Purellum  
#15 Posted : 25 June 2022 16:56:27(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,441
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

So, no movement at all from the servos?

Could the loose transparent plastic wire ends be the unused ends not being cut, and thus the wires are actualy mounted to both servo arms and pantographs? I can't tell from your pictures.

I don't find it logical to have two faults - servos AND connections to servos.

I don't have this loco.... Cool

Per

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
Offline tomdakl  
#16 Posted : 26 June 2022 00:11:08(UTC)
tomdakl

New Zealand   
Joined: 30/09/2019(UTC)
Posts: 20
Location: Titirangi, NZ
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Thomas

I have this great model and it is working like a charm BUT in the users manual, it says YOU MUST unlock the pantographs before first use.
If you didn't no harm is done but it won't work.
.....
My 2 cents worth
Jean


Hi Jean,

Being an electronics engineer by training, I've got RTFM (read the fine manual) in my bloodstreamBigGrin

Thanks for pointing it out, and yes I complied, but no amount of adherence to the manual can compensate for a manufacturing omission - which fortunately did not happen on your model.
The panthograph wires on mine look like they never were connected.
Maybe next time you have your model open for lubrication, could you send us a shot on what the servo and pantho wire look like in when it is installed properly?

And Purellum, yes, no movement from the servos at all. I assume another initialization step missed.
And no, the transparent nylon threads that should go to the pantograph are firmly ending in the middle of clean air Crying.
If I open the model again, I will see if there is any other part of the thread going up, but I could not see that at all yesterday.

My favorite suggestion heard this far is that the worker who assembled the model got on his lunchbreak after step 10 and picked up from step 13 BigGrin
Still, Märklin looses brand equity and reputation by not catching matters like these in quality assurance.

Have a fun Sunday
Thomas
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Online JohnjeanB  
#17 Posted : 26 June 2022 13:03:16(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,120
Location: Paris, France
Hi Thomas
Greetings to a fellow Electrical Engineer. I developped micro processor board and systems and started exporting my work also to the USA (Atlanta airport computerized parking system, Los Angeles fare collection system, Eurostar AFC in the Channel tunnel.
Sorry for suspecting you didn't red the G. damned manual. (Many don't)
You mentioned a nylon wire to the pantograph. Indeed in the previous design, there was a thin (0.10 mm) nylon wire to pull down the pantograph (like on my 39970 Turmtriebwagen -catenary inspection car). On this new 39126 loco, I didn't see any but my sight is not that greatCursing
As soon as I get near my loco I will make pictures for you. A week maybe.
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
marshalling yard
Online JohnjeanB  
#18 Posted : 03 July 2022 01:44:48(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,120
Location: Paris, France
Hi Thomas
As promised here is the picture of my loco
39126 Inside.png
I opened the loco just for you.
I realized that indeed, there is a nylon thread but very nicely concealed (Vertical at the base of the pnatograph)
See below
39126 PantographPullDown.png
I hope this helps
Warning: when re-installing the case on the chassis, make sure no wire gets tangled in the fixing screws
Cheers
Jen

My layout videos
latest vid
marshalling yard
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Offline Purellum  
#19 Posted : 03 July 2022 09:01:33(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,441
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
I realized that indeed, there is a nylon thread but very nicely concealed (Vertical at the base of the pantograph)


As I see your picture, the un-used ends of the nylon thread are hanging loose inside the loco - thus not being an error, as I suggested earlier Blink

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
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Offline Goofy  
#20 Posted : 03 July 2022 10:25:32(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,579
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Thomas
As promised here is the picture of my loco
39126 Inside.png
I opened the loco just for you.
I hope this helps
Warning: when re-installing the case on the chassis, make sure no wire gets tangled in the fixing screws
Cheers
Jen



It`s very interested that Märklin didn´t add extra PCB under the roof for the pantograph and lighting.
All those wires don´t make sense when you try to close the body again on the frame.
Is that´s way this locomotive model are cheaper than others?
It looks mess for me.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#21 Posted : 03 July 2022 13:33:07(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,923
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post

It`s very interested that Märklin didn´t add extra PCB under the roof for the pantograph and lighting.
All those wires don´t make sense when you try to close the body again on the frame.
Is that´s way this locomotive model are cheaper than others?
It looks mess for me.



Goofy,
I think this is a case of economics, why have another PCB to connect those wires to, then have a wire run down to the existing PCB? That becomes two extra items to manufacture and inventory, when the wires can go directly to the existing PCB. If you think that is a mess, then have a look inside items made by the likes of B&O, and other highly regarded companies, they can be even more of a mess of wires going everywhere.

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Offline Goofy  
#22 Posted : 04 July 2022 18:37:45(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,579
If you look at the other electric locomotives, they look cleaner on the inside and in fact Märklin has several models.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline tomdakl  
#23 Posted : 05 August 2022 19:05:56(UTC)
tomdakl

New Zealand   
Joined: 30/09/2019(UTC)
Posts: 20
Location: Titirangi, NZ
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Thomas
As promised here is the picture of my loco
39126 Inside.png
I opened the loco just for you.
....
Cheers
Jen



Dear Jen,

Thank you for the clear picture. Greatly appreciated.
And it is good to see that you have the leftover nylon thread inside the engine as well.
I'll head in to the dealer where i bought it from tomorrow, so we willl see what the next steps are to resolve this matter.

Cheers,
Thomas
Offline tomdakl  
#24 Posted : 07 August 2022 21:19:42(UTC)
tomdakl

New Zealand   
Joined: 30/09/2019(UTC)
Posts: 20
Location: Titirangi, NZ
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post


It`s very interested that Märklin didn´t add extra PCB under the roof for the pantograph and lighting.
All those wires don´t make sense when you try to close the body again on the frame.
Is that´s way this locomotive model are cheaper than others?
It looks mess for me.



Bingo!

I showed up at the dealer, having dragged the model half way round the world (literally: from New Zealand to Austria).
Sure enough, the pantos were not working. We checked the servos, freedom of movement, any number of digital protocols, etc.
To no avail. Dead as a dodo.

Then we pulled and pushed all the connectors and the necessary miracle occurred. Both pantos started working perfectly.

Of course I am kicking myself that I did not try this a few months back, but I do like the element that model railroading teaches me humility BigGrin .
Reflecting on this, the core reason why I did not play with the connectors, was that the pantos were "not user fixable" i.e. we cannot buy replacement parts, they are return to base for repairs only. That introduced for me a element of "better run with the warranty" and "touch no more".

In the future I will definitely check if Märklin models have this "return to base for repairs" in their manual and/or spare parts list ... and avoid them BigGrin.
I'm one of these people who like to run my models on the layout.

Thank you all for the suggestions, clues and help in this thread.

Greatly appreciated.

Thomas
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