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Offline fosuna  
#1 Posted : 21 May 2022 07:21:05(UTC)
fosuna

Spain   
Joined: 14/04/2015(UTC)
Posts: 58
Hi everyone,

Please, anyone knows the motor type of the 60941/60943/60944 high efficency retrofit motors from Märklin?

More precisely, which value must have de CV52 for these motors (60941/60943/60944)?

I can't find the information.

Thanks a lot.

Greetings from Spain.

Francisco Osuna

Francisco Osuna
https://fosuna.net
Offline bph  
#2 Posted : 21 May 2022 12:06:12(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 996
Its C90 (no3)

And its also recommended to do the calibration if you use a new Marklin decoder. Write 77 to cv 7, or replace the first number in the firmware number with 77 when using CS3 and mfx. (but read the manual first)
(currently, it is recommended to avoid English as the system language on the CS3 when programming motor type, because of a software bug)
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by bph
Offline French_Fabrice  
#3 Posted : 21 May 2022 21:22:07(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,476
Location: Lyon, France
Hello Francisco,

It depends on which decoder is driving then engine.
Please give us the decoder you intend to use.

Cheers
Fabrice
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by French_Fabrice
Offline fosuna  
#4 Posted : 28 May 2022 19:40:17(UTC)
fosuna

Spain   
Joined: 14/04/2015(UTC)
Posts: 58
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hello Francisco,

It depends on which decoder is driving then engine.
Please give us the decoder you intend to use.

Cheers
Fabrice


Hello Fabrice!

I intend to use the series of Märklin's decoders mSD3 (60975/60976/60977).

Thanks a lot for your help!

Francisco
Francisco Osuna
https://fosuna.net
Offline French_Fabrice  
#5 Posted : 29 May 2022 08:30:23(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,476
Location: Lyon, France
Hello Francisco,

The reply is already given in post #2 by bph.
The value of CV52 for 5 poles engine set is 3 (Motor High efficiency propulsion C90). See page 40 of the documentation.

Cheers
Fabrice
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by French_Fabrice
Offline fosuna  
#6 Posted : 29 May 2022 09:09:42(UTC)
fosuna

Spain   
Joined: 14/04/2015(UTC)
Posts: 58
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hello Francisco,

The reply is already given in post #2 by bph.
The value of CV52 for 5 poles engine set is 3 (Motor High efficiency propulsion C90). See page 40 of the documentation.

Cheers
Fabrice

Thank you very much for your answer Fabrice.

I read the documentation before, bur my doubt came because in the Märklin book "Running Trains Digitally with the Central Station 3", on page 122 in the calibration run and the Ideal Running, it says:

Quote:
We first go to CV 52, where the type of motor is stored. It is the number 5, DC soft, as a standard. This is the most used type and it also corresponds to the conversion kit.


And for more problems, the CS identifies the motor as type no 4 (Bell armature).

That's why I had nothing clear.

Thanks a lot to you and bph.

By the way, what are the differences between a High efficency propulsion c90, direct current DC soft and direct current DC hard? I thought that the new conversion kits 60941/3/4 worked with direct current, and the C90 with alternate current.

Francisco


Francisco Osuna
https://fosuna.net
Offline French_Fabrice  
#7 Posted : 29 May 2022 12:51:09(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,476
Location: Lyon, France
Hi Francisco,

Uuh, not so clear.

Please be warned I have NO expertise with Marklin decoders (I always use ESU ones).
I had simply read the doc of the 60975, and having seen the C90 it sounds familiar to me, thus I selected this value, because it is related to old/replacement kit 5 stars engine.

Even if the difference between type 3 (5 stars C90) and type 5 (DC Soft) is also unclear for me (I assume it is identical ?), I would stay with type 3.

If somebody can provide more accurate answer, it would be better.

Sorry for the confusion (I will stay now with ESU decoders Mellow )

Cheers
Fabrice


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Offline kiwiAlan  
#8 Posted : 29 May 2022 13:34:07(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,107
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: fosuna Go to Quoted Post
I thought that the new conversion kits 60941/3/4 worked with direct current, and the C90 with alternate current.

Francisco


The c90 decoders all required the conversion kit with a magnet, making them into DC motors.

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Offline fosuna  
#9 Posted : 29 May 2022 20:28:01(UTC)
fosuna

Spain   
Joined: 14/04/2015(UTC)
Posts: 58
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hi Francisco,

Uuh, not so clear.

Please be warned I have NO expertise with Marklin decoders (I always use ESU ones).
I had simply read the doc of the 60975, and having seen the C90 it sounds familiar to me, thus I selected this value, because it is related to old/replacement kit 5 stars engine.

Even if the difference between type 3 (5 stars C90) and type 5 (DC Soft) is also unclear for me (I assume it is identical ?), I would stay with type 3.

If somebody can provide more accurate answer, it would be better.

Sorry for the confusion (I will stay now with ESU decoders Mellow )

Cheers
Fabrice




Thank you Fabrice for your message!

I hope somebody can explain us with more detail the difference between the type 3 (5 stars C90), type 5 (DC Soft) and type 6 (DC Hard).

Cheers,

Francisco
Francisco Osuna
https://fosuna.net
Offline fosuna  
#10 Posted : 29 May 2022 20:31:18(UTC)
fosuna

Spain   
Joined: 14/04/2015(UTC)
Posts: 58
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: fosuna Go to Quoted Post
I thought that the new conversion kits 60941/3/4 worked with direct current, and the C90 with alternate current.

Francisco


The c90 decoders all required the conversion kit with a magnet, making them into DC motors.



Thank you very much kiwiAlan!

Do you know the difference between type 3 (5 stars C90), type 5 (DC Soft) and type 6 (DC Hard)? I can't find any useful information about this.

Greetings,

Francisco


Francisco Osuna
https://fosuna.net
Offline kiwiAlan  
#11 Posted : 29 May 2022 21:36:28(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,107
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: fosuna Go to Quoted Post

Do you know the difference between type 3 (5 stars C90), type 5 (DC Soft) and type 6 (DC Hard)? I can't find any useful information about this.


No I don't know the difference. This is an area where Marklin could be a lot more up front with information. To my mind they have a decoder that could beat the ESU series, but are tight lipped about the necessary information to enable this to happen.

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Offline bph  
#12 Posted : 29 May 2022 23:40:28(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 996
Originally Posted by: fosuna Go to Quoted Post

I read the documentation before, bur my doubt came because in the Märklin book "Running Trains Digitally with the Central Station 3", on page 122 in the calibration run and the Ideal Running, it says:

Quote:
We first go to CV 52, where the type of motor is stored. It is the number 5, DC soft, as a standard. This is the most used type and it also corresponds to the conversion kit.

My personal guess is that DC soft is used as standard and works ok with most motors. But if you change to c90 you will probably get a better result as it is "optimised" for that type of engine. And I notice that they don't use that phrase in the decoder manual.....

eg new locomotives from Marklin with that type of engine, use the c90 setting. I haven't checked all of course but I noticed it in the 37244.

but do some comparisons and test locomotives with different settings and use the setting that gives you the best running.Smile

I read somewhere that DC soft is generally recommended for general dc motors without flywheel, and dc hard is for motors with flywheel.
but I'm not sure about this, since Märklin does not use it consistently. eg the recent SNCF 241, SNCB class 1, BR 02 0314 and DSB class E, are all fitted with the same motor (E264215), but the SNCF 241 and SNCB class 1 is set to DC hard from the factory and the BR 02 0314 and DSB E are set to DC soft from the factory.
On the DSB E, I did a test, and changed the motor settings to DC hard and did a new calibration run, and I feel that the slow running characteristic improved, so I'm keeping that setting.

Originally Posted by: fosuna Go to Quoted Post
And for more problems, the CS identifies the motor as type no 4 (Bell armature).

The readout is probably wrong, due to the software bug. (as mentioned above in #2).
If using English, change the CS3 system language to something else, and you will most likely get a correct reading.
note that the bug in the English software also affects the motor type when you change it. eg if you are trying to set C90 with the cs3, the cs3 actually programs a different motor type.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by bph
Offline fosuna  
#13 Posted : 30 May 2022 15:27:48(UTC)
fosuna

Spain   
Joined: 14/04/2015(UTC)
Posts: 58
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: fosuna Go to Quoted Post

I read the documentation before, bur my doubt came because in the Märklin book "Running Trains Digitally with the Central Station 3", on page 122 in the calibration run and the Ideal Running, it says:

Quote:
We first go to CV 52, where the type of motor is stored. It is the number 5, DC soft, as a standard. This is the most used type and it also corresponds to the conversion kit.

My personal guess is that DC soft is used as standard and works ok with most motors. But if you change to c90 you will probably get a better result as it is "optimised" for that type of engine. And I notice that they don't use that phrase in the decoder manual.....

eg new locomotives from Marklin with that type of engine, use the c90 setting. I haven't checked all of course but I noticed it in the 37244.

but do some comparisons and test locomotives with different settings and use the setting that gives you the best running.Smile

I read somewhere that DC soft is generally recommended for general dc motors without flywheel, and dc hard is for motors with flywheel.
but I'm not sure about this, since Märklin does not use it consistently. eg the recent SNCF 241, SNCB class 1, BR 02 0314 and DSB class E, are all fitted with the same motor (E264215), but the SNCF 241 and SNCB class 1 is set to DC hard from the factory and the BR 02 0314 and DSB E are set to DC soft from the factory.
On the DSB E, I did a test, and changed the motor settings to DC hard and did a new calibration run, and I feel that the slow running characteristic improved, so I'm keeping that setting.

Originally Posted by: fosuna Go to Quoted Post
And for more problems, the CS identifies the motor as type no 4 (Bell armature).

The readout is probably wrong, due to the software bug. (as mentioned above in #2).
If using English, change the CS3 system language to something else, and you will most likely get a correct reading.
note that the bug in the English software also affects the motor type when you change it. eg if you are trying to set C90 with the cs3, the cs3 actually programs a different motor type.


Hi bph!

Very good comments! Thank you!

Greetings,

Francisco
Francisco Osuna
https://fosuna.net
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by fosuna
bph
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