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Offline BenP  
#1 Posted : 25 April 2022 02:15:14(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
I converted 8 analog locs since last summer, using the basic Marklin decoder that is part of the 60760 conversion set. I am finding that 3 have now failed, starting with lights no longer switching. This after working fine for months.
I have the suspicion that occasional track shorts or power pulses burn the unit. I have no way of testing, so wonder if others have found the same issue. Should I invest in a decoder tester?
I am replacing the failed units with lokpilot5, which allows mfx and has aux connections, and better ride control for only a few dollars more.
Screenshot_20220424-195903_eBay.jpg
Digital M (+ some K) track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories, and small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
Offline xxup  
#2 Posted : 25 April 2022 04:21:26(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,458
Location: Australia
I have used these sets for many years without any problems. Some of the locos have been through three generations of conntrollers IB1 -> eCOS 1 -> Ecos 2. They are a pretty basic decoder and don't have anywhere near the refinements of an ESU Lokpilot 5 decoder, but they have been very robust for me during my conversion projects. Of course, these decoders don't support mFx (only MM2) or at least the old ones I have don't support the protocol.
Adrian
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Australia flag by abFlags.com
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Offline Bill L  
#3 Posted : 25 April 2022 06:00:02(UTC)
Bill L

United States   
Joined: 08/12/2021(UTC)
Posts: 84
Location: California, Sonoma County
I have had 2 of my 60760 decoders fail through the last many years. I think it was my fault. I think I over-oiled the motor shafts, and the graphite brushes with the oil formed a black sludge with the oil and started to fill the 5 gaps of the commutator. The symptom I found out was the the lok would not move when powered up, but if you nudged it slightly it will move. I think the short circuiting between the 5 commutators on the 5 poles killed the decoder. I now use an x-acto knife to scrape the black stuff off between the commutators.
With these decoders, you do not solder the 2 additional "chokes", and reading through a lot of discussions on this forum, I think they may be needed to protect the decoder from sudden voltage spikes from the motor. That is a guess on my part. I do lubricate with much less oil now.
Does anyone know if it is detrimental to use and solder the 2 additional chokes when using the ESU decoders?? The ESU decoder instructions tell us not to use them.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Bill L
Offline BenP  
#4 Posted : 25 April 2022 06:09:12(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: Bill L Go to Quoted Post
I have had 2 of my 60760 decoders fail through the last many years. I think it was my fault. I think I over-oiled the motor shafts, and the graphite brushes with the oil formed a black sludge with the oil and started to fill the 5 gaps of the commutator. The symptom I found out was the the lok would not move when powered up, but if you nudged it slightly it will move. I think the short circuiting between the 5 commutators on the 5 poles killed the decoder. I now use an x-acto knife to scrape the black stuff off between the commutators.
With these decoders, you do not solder the 2 additional "chokes", and reading through a lot of discussions on this forum, I think they may be needed to protect the decoder from sudden voltage spikes from the motor. That is a guess on my part. I do lubricate with much less oil now.
Does anyone know if it is detrimental to use and solder the 2 additional chokes when using the ESU decoders?? The ESU decoder instructions tell us not to use them.


I use chokes with 60760 decoder, but not with lokpilot5 (as instructed). Are chokes like capacitors?
Digital M (+ some K) track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories, and small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#5 Posted : 25 April 2022 08:39:36(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
Are chokes like capacitors?


No, they look like resistors but are there to suppress RF noise affecting other devices (streaky noisy lines on TV's etc).

I've found the 60760 decoders to be very reliable, the only ones I've had failed are where I've done something - bad wire routing causing a wire to be pinched causing shorts.
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#6 Posted : 25 April 2022 12:03:39(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Hi
I have used 60760 in small quantities 5 to 10 and never had a failure.
To be honest I purchased most at least 5 years ago, now I purchase mLD2, mLD3, mSD2 or mSD3
Definitely the switch on and off has no effect as many use stop sections in front of signals.
So the problem may be elsewhere.
Is the AC voltage provided to your control unit appropriate (non standard transfo, house voltage higher than specified?
Cheers
Jean
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Offline BenP  
#7 Posted : 25 April 2022 12:41:09(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post

Is the AC voltage provided to your control unit appropriate (non standard transfo, house voltage higher than specified?
Cheers
Jean


I checked voltage, ~18v. Main track powered by CS3+ and test/repair track by IB2, both using recommended Marklin power supply.
Digital M (+ some K) track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories, and small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
Offline BenP  
#8 Posted : 25 April 2022 12:45:30(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
Are chokes like capacitors?


No, they look like resistors but are there to suppress RF noise affecting other devices (streaky noisy lines on TV's etc).

I've found the 60760 decoders to be very reliable, the only ones I've had failed are where I've done something - bad wire routing causing a wire to be pinched causing shorts.


What is noise em spectrum generated?

Pinched wires might be it, as they are delicate (i shrink wrap where exposed).
Digital M (+ some K) track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories, and small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#9 Posted : 25 April 2022 15:21:44(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
What is noise em spectrum generated?


https://www.electronics-...equency-noise-basics.php

Offline BenP  
#10 Posted : 25 April 2022 20:32:23(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
What is noise em spectrum generated?


https://www.electronics-...equency-noise-basics.php



I meant what is the interference bandwidth generated by marklin. Does it affect wifi, cell bands? Interference was (is?) an issue in Europe when I was young, affecting over the air signals for tv and radio.
Digital M (+ some K) track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories, and small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by BenP
Offline marklinist5999  
#11 Posted : 26 April 2022 01:16:08(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,075
Location: Michigan, Troy
Ben, I'm sure you're aware that a noiuse supressor mounted in the track will filter out most of the digital signal, rendering operation nill if any at all.
Offline BenP  
#12 Posted : 26 April 2022 02:44:46(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
Ben, I'm sure you're aware that a noiuse supressor mounted in the track will filter out most of the digital signal, rendering operation nill if any at all.


Thx for the reminder. Indeed, digital track cannot have frequency filters. Just wonder what the DC motor chokes do, which sit after the decoder's track to DC rectifier. Marklin says install chokes, ESU says not install.
Digital M (+ some K) track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories, and small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by BenP
Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 26 April 2022 10:44:04(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
Marklin says install chokes, ESU says not install.
ESU decoders support PWM frequencies up to 50 kHz. AFAIK Märklin decoders have far lower frequencies.
ESU recommends reducing the PWM frequency if the chokes have not been removed.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline BenP  
#14 Posted : 26 April 2022 13:43:44(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
Marklin says install chokes, ESU says not install.
ESU decoders support PWM frequencies up to 50 kHz. AFAIK Märklin decoders have far lower frequencies.
ESU recommends reducing the PWM frequency if the chokes have not been removed.



I read up a little about PWM, but that level of model train electronics is mostly beyond me. I understand that low speed and load behavior are particularly affected, which are much improved for my original 1960s locs after digital conversion and new motors. Seems best for me to follow manufacturer instructions.
Digital M (+ some K) track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories, and small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by BenP
Offline marklinist5999  
#15 Posted : 26 April 2022 15:42:35(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,075
Location: Michigan, Troy
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
Ben, I'm sure you're aware that a noiuse supressor mounted in the track will filter out most of the digital signal, rendering operation nill if any at all.


Thx for the reminder. Indeed, digital track cannot have frequency filters. Just wonder what the DC motor chokes do, which sit after the decoder's track to DC rectifier. Marklin says install chokes, ESU says not install.


That's interesting Ben! I don't know if ESU includes a power capacitor like Roco does on most models, or if would have any effect on not needing a noise filter?
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