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Offline epoche_ii  
#1 Posted : 01 April 2022 18:42:40(UTC)
epoche_ii

United States   
Joined: 15/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12
Location: Long Island, NY
I am interested in running realistic operations on my layout in the future.

For generic freight wagons, setting up plausible supply-lines and destinations of ordinary goods is easy, but I am unsure of how bulk fuel moved in Germany EP II and III.
In particular, I'm interested to know where "Shell" tank wagons "traveled to and from" in Germany.
So far Google searches haven't turned up the information I'm looking for.
I have some 4676 EP II "Shell" Tank Freight Cars that I plan on re-numbering, and I'd like to get some of the 00755 series EP III cars on eBay.

Does anyone know if these cars ran on the Rhine routes?

My thoughts (guesses really) are that fuel came into Germany on tankers into the northern ports like Hamburg, Rostock etc.. and then were transported by rail inland wherever there wasn't an inland port.

For those places with inland ports like Duisburg, Mannheim etc... fuel would arrive by tankers in the port of Amsterdam and then move by barge in bulk down the Rhine to an inland port, where it could then be transferred to rail cars, and then be moved inland by rail to the inland cities of Germany.

Another possibility is that they came by rail across the borders with France, Belgium etc... Like I said, I'm just guessing at this point.

If anyone on this forum is knowledgeable on this topic, I would greatly appreciate any leads.

Chris
Offline twmarklinfan  
#2 Posted : 01 April 2022 19:07:49(UTC)
twmarklinfan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 08/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 359
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent, United Kingdom
Germany currently has about 14 oil refineries producing all the oil products for domestic consumption. Apart from refineries with port facilities, such as Hamburg and Wilhelmshaven in the north, are served by pipeline. Refineries in the south are served by the pipeline running from Trieste.

I think you can reasonably run oil tankers with clean products like aviation fuel or motor spirits. Black coloured Tankers would be carrying fuel oil for power plants etc.
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Offline epoche_ii  
#3 Posted : 01 April 2022 19:14:57(UTC)
epoche_ii

United States   
Joined: 15/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12
Location: Long Island, NY
Thanks twmarklinfan,

Any idea what type of fuel the EP II & III "Shell" wagons were transporting? Gasoline?

Chris
Offline Copenhagen  
#4 Posted : 02 April 2022 00:43:31(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 369
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
I recently read a bit in a new book, in Danish, about the history of the petrol (or gas) station in Denmark. One of the companies was DDPA (the Danish Petroleum Company) founded in 1889 (in 1952 it became Danish ESSO). DDPA got the petrol from USA by ship and had tank facilities where the petrol could be stored first in Copenhagen, later in 60 other cities/harbors around the country. I can see in Danish railway archives that already in 1890 they got their first tank cars for carrying petroleum (used for lighting) later on their cars began to carry gasoline as the demand increased.

So the petroleum products could be delivered by train from harbor facilities (I don't know if all harbors with fuel depots had train service, but a lot would) to stations anywhere in the country where the firm would want it.

In the archives it says about the tank cars from about 1904 and on that they could carry petroleum, gasoline, fuel oil (diesel oil?) and lubrication oil.
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#5 Posted : 02 April 2022 00:50:15(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,653
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hello Chris,
Very good questions, that sort of thing intrigues me also.

When you look at 4676 labelling you have the following, each of which if googled can lead to other clues.
1. Ladegut (near the wagon number) - I dont have mine to hand to check- but it describes what is carried in the tanker.
2. Owner - Rhenania-Ossag -more clues to follow.
3. Location of owner - Dusseldorf -more clues to follow.

Also you can pick up this same wagon with a different running number which comes from set #2995.
Because it is supplied without box it may be cheaper.
The 2995 set also includes a nice box-car lettered for Stückgut Schnell verkehr, which means Piece cargo fast traffic.
For era II DRG times I don't believe Märklin have ever replicated this model.


There has been doubt that Shell ever ran tankers in that colouring in epoch II but there is photo evidence of such in a later post.

Kimball

Edited by user 05 April 2022 02:59:12(UTC)  | Reason: corrected 2995 info and note about photo evidence.

HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline epoche_ii  
#6 Posted : 02 April 2022 02:56:39(UTC)
epoche_ii

United States   
Joined: 15/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12
Location: Long Island, NY
Thanks Copenhagen;

“got the petrol from USA by ship and had tank facilities where the petrol could be stored first in Copenhagen, later in 60 other cities/harbors around the country.”

I suspect it was similar in Germany as well.
Chri

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Offline epoche_ii  
#7 Posted : 02 April 2022 03:06:15(UTC)
epoche_ii

United States   
Joined: 15/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12
Location: Long Island, NY
Thanks for the clues kimballthurlow,

I’ll start searching again in the morning.

“I think as a dampener, there may be some doubt that Shell ever ran tankers in that colouring in epoch II but maybe there is photo evidence of such.”

I agree, the fact that I couldn’t easily find any period pictures or information about “Shell” wagons on German rails, is what lead me to ask for help.

Much appreciated,
Chris

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Offline Alsterstreek  
#8 Posted : 02 April 2022 08:49:05(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,666
Location: Hybrid Home
There are two of these Shell tankers preserved by museum railways.

The Hessencourier website offers only superficial information:

https://www.hessencourri...1-072-kesselwagen-shell/

The VVM website has a photo and some historical information (in German only):

https://www.vvm-museumsbahn.de/?id=vv-C325
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#9 Posted : 02 April 2022 11:06:51(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,666
Location: Hybrid Home
More background info on two-axle tankers plus historic prototype photos are to be found in the attached PDF (German language...):

Kesselwagen.pdf (19,192kb) downloaded 48 time(s).

Intelligence extracted: This tanker type was meant to transport petroleum oils, tar oils and other oils. While wagons for "white goods" were painted in company colors, wagons for oil and tar were mostly black. Yellow Shell tank cars can be documented from the 1920s to 1967. Since 1962, they have been successively painted gray.

Search for "Shell" to find relevant text and photos. Search for "Ladegut" for cargo information. Note that the article covers also other oil companies, as ARAL, BP, ESSO and Olex etc.

Source: https://shop.vgbahn.info...rseiten/15088135_GW7.pdf
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#10 Posted : 02 April 2022 12:15:08(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,666
Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: epoche_ii Go to Quoted Post

Does anyone know if these cars ran on the Rhine routes?

My thoughts (guesses really) are that fuel came into Germany on tankers into the northern ports like Hamburg, Rostock etc.. and then were transported by rail inland wherever there wasn't an inland port.

For those places with inland ports like Duisburg, Mannheim etc... fuel would arrive by tankers in the port of Amsterdam and then move by barge in bulk down the Rhine to an inland port, where it could then be transferred to rail cars, and then be moved inland by rail to the inland cities of Germany.

Another possibility is that they came by rail across the borders with France, Belgium etc... Like I said, I'm just guessing at this point.


According to what I found out, these rail tank cars served to transport cargo within Germany (1) from refineries, where they arrived by ship (ports) or pipeline (e.g., Ingolstadt) to end customers and (2) from exploration fields (e.g. Wietze field in the north and Mönchsrot field in the south) to refineries. Consequently, the first photo of SHELL cars in the PDF provided earlier (on the bottom of page 6) shows them at the SHELL refinery in the port of Hamburg (in the background a seagoing tank ship is visible).
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Offline epoche_ii  
#11 Posted : 02 April 2022 12:59:48(UTC)
epoche_ii

United States   
Joined: 15/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12
Location: Long Island, NY
Alsterstreek,

Fantastic! Thanks so much for the links, info and PDF.

"According to what I found out, these rail tank cars served to transport cargo within Germany (1) from refineries, where they arrived by ship (ports) or pipeline (e.g., Ingolstadt) to end customers and (2) from exploration fields (e.g. Wietze field in the north and Mönchsrot field in the south) to refineries. Consequently, the first photo of SHELL cars in the PDF provided earlier (on the bottom of page 6) shows them at the SHELL refinery in the port of Hamburg (in the background a seagoing tank ship is visible)."

I didn't even think of the oil fields in Germany.

Chris



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Offline epoche_ii  
#12 Posted : 02 April 2022 15:53:06(UTC)
epoche_ii

United States   
Joined: 15/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12
Location: Long Island, NY
Alsterstreek,

I would guess that the picture of the yellow "Shell" tank car on page 8 of the PDF was the inspiration for the Marklin 4676 model. Although they got a few things wrong, it's pretty close.
Shell 541 811 [P].tif (14,817kb) downloaded 46 time(s).

The caption says the picture was taken in Düsseldorf on June 26, 1928.

Thanks to your tips, I now know that there was a Rhenania-Ossag petroleum refinery in Reisholz near Düsseldorf starting around 1902. Rhenania-Ossag was some kind of a subsidiary of the Royal Dutch Petroleum Company (Shell) in those days. This was apparently one of the first inland refineries in Germany, and was the brain child of Heinrich Späth, who wanted a refinery closer to the consumers rather than near the coast (Hamburg), as had been customary in the past.

I read also that later Shell broke into two companies when the war started, one on the Allied side, the other on the Axis. I found a picture of a British Shell tanker in Romania that was either confiscated, or part of that deal. German Petroleum Refineries.tif (14,802kb) downloaded 23 time(s). Shell Ploiesti 1940.tif (8,622kb) downloaded 27 time(s).
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#13 Posted : 05 April 2022 04:14:46(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,653
Location: Brisbane, Australia
I have now checked the lettering on my Shell tanker from the 2995 set.

The load label reads:
Ladegut .... Erdöle und Steinkohlenfaeröle
which translates to Petroleum and coal oils.
The date on the wagon solebar is 01-1935.
I don't have a 4676 to check if the label is the same.

In the 1920s and 30s the German state was heavily reliant on oil imports, which gave them an understandable paranoia about supporting industrial output.
They spent huge sums on encouraging the synthetic development of petroleum products aside from the normal underground sources then prevalent.
By the start of WWII, their production of fuel from coal had reached considerable strength.
The link (in the above post #12) given for the list of refineries is not dated but to put oil-from-coal production in some perspective, by early 1944 Germany was producing 4 million tons annually which was 10 times that shown for the Rhenania-Ossag refineries combined.
Quote from Dr A Parker Director of Fuel Research, UK 1 February 1947 speaking of coal-to-oil plants - "It is certain that systematic destruction of German oil plants was one of the main factors in hastening the defeat of Germany."

Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline H0  
#14 Posted : 05 April 2022 08:06:05(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Ladegut .... Erdöle und Steinkohlenfaeröle
Could this be "Steinkohlenteeröle"?

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#15 Posted : 05 April 2022 12:22:58(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,653
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Ladegut .... Erdöle und Steinkohlenfaeröle
Could this be "Steinkohlenteeröle"?



Definitely Tom, I would say you are correct.
In reading the label I could not make out the lettering precisely.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline epoche_ii  
#16 Posted : 06 April 2022 00:39:13(UTC)
epoche_ii

United States   
Joined: 15/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12
Location: Long Island, NY
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
I have now checked the lettering on my Shell tanker from the 2995 set.

The load label reads:
Ladegut .... Erdöle und Steinkohlenfaeröle
which translates to Petroleum and coal oils.
The date on the wagon solebar is 01-1935.
I don't have a 4676 to check if the label is the same.

In the 1920s and 30s the German state was heavily reliant on oil imports, which gave them an understandable paranoia about supporting industrial output.
They spent huge sums on encouraging the synthetic development of petroleum products aside from the normal underground sources then prevalent.
By the start of WWII, their production of fuel from coal had reached considerable strength.
The link (in the above post #12) given for the list of refineries is not dated but to put oil-from-coal production in some perspective, by early 1944 Germany was producing 4 million tons annually which was 10 times that shown for the Rhenania-Ossag refineries combined.
Quote from Dr A Parker Director of Fuel Research, UK 1 February 1947 speaking of coal-to-oil plants - "It is certain that systematic destruction of German oil plants was one of the main factors in hastening the defeat of Germany."

Kimball


Kimball,
I have 2 variants of the Marklin 4676 actually. The ones with wagon number 541 347 [P] are dated 24.1.29. They carry "Mineraloel" (regular Mineral oil).
The later ones with wagon number 542 573 [P] are dated 24.1.35 and carry "Erdöle und Steinkohlenteeröle" (Petroleum and coal tar oils).
Marklin 4676 Shell 542 573 [P].jpg

Yeah, yesterday I was just reading about the The two major synthetic fuel processes used in Nazi Germany - the Fischer-Tropsch process and the Bergius hydrogenation process. I knew the Germans produced a lot of synthetic fuel before and during the war. I didn't know it was that much! The Oil Industry in Nazi Germany, 1936-1945.pdf (3,363kb) downloaded 21 time(s).

Thanks for continuing the research.
Chris




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Offline kimballthurlow  
#17 Posted : 07 April 2022 01:35:51(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,653
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Chris,

OK interesting that 4676 was produced with variants.
I can confirm that 2995 was issued as 542 573.

Apparently the synthetic oils were not suitable for lubrication purposes, but eminently suitable for volatile oils such as benzine and aviation fuel.


regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline epoche_ii  
#18 Posted : 07 April 2022 02:29:43(UTC)
epoche_ii

United States   
Joined: 15/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12
Location: Long Island, NY
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Hi Chris,

OK interesting that 4676 was produced with variants.
I can confirm that 2995 was issued as 542 573.

Apparently the synthetic oils were not suitable for lubrication purposes, but eminently suitable for volatile oils such as benzine and aviation fuel.


regards
Kimball


Kimball,
After some research, and digging around. I think I purchased the Shell wagon no. 542 573 [P] loose or someone put it into a 4676 box and advertised it as such on eBay, and I never noticed.
Either way, I'm glad I have one.

You are right, the 4676 was only released in one series between 1986 and 1988.
The K-Track Starter set 2995 "with the look a like" Shell that you also have was released in 1995. The big difference between the two wagons besides their markings is the gray roof plate on the brakeman's cab on the 2995 starter set version. The 4676 doesn't have that.

So with all that being said, my research on rail routes these wagons would be running on have zoomed in on two refineries located south of Düsseldorf.

Because the 4676 is marked: “Heimatstation Langenfeld Rhld” (Home station Langenfeld Rhineland), I believe this tank wagon was used to transport the lubricating oil produced at the Schmieröl-Raffinerie Mineralölwerke Rhenania GmbH, in Monheim am Rhein. The Mineralölwerke founded in 1913, processed crude oil from Venezuela and petroleum residues from Romania into lubricating oil. It was the main supplier of lubricating oil to the German army during the Great War. Langenfeld is just NE of Monheim and a likely place for the empty wagons to return to.

As far as the wagon from the 2995 set goes...
Its markings identify its home station as Düsseldorf-Reisholz. I believe this tank wagon carried either crude for gasoline, or refined gasoline from the Benzinwerke Rhenania GmbH in Reisholz near Düsseldorf. This refinery founded in 1902, processed top quality crude oil supplied by Rhenania-Ossag’s Dutch parent company Königlich-Niederländische Petroleum-Gesellschaft, into gasoline.

I think the crude came either from the Rhenania-Ossag Mineralölwerke AG tank facility in the port of Hamburg built in 1903, or from the Port of Amsterdam via barges on the Rhine.

My guess is, that if the crude came in all the way from Hamburg, it came either via rail or by barge down the Weser River and then the Dortmund-Ems Canal. But that's just a guess.

Chris
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#19 Posted : 08 April 2022 00:51:21(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,653
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Thank you Chris, that is very comprehensive and interesting research.
It certainly puts the model tankers in perspective for your layout ideas, and justifies a number of them in a train.

I have also the same era II tanker in black MEX-PHALT livery (wagon no. 541 851 [P] owner Rhenania-Ossag Düsseldorf), Märklin model number is 4871.
A search for Rhenania on the Märklin website reveals only two Z scale wagons and one is the Mex-Phalt tanker.
A search for Shell on the Märklin website reveals only the livery and build types for era III or later tankers.

Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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