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Offline kimballthurlow  
#1 Posted : 08 September 2021 02:05:21(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,368
Location: Brisbane, Australia
39710- a review of a 20 year old ICE

Well I got this train set from Germany, second-hand, 20 years old.
It is my first ICE train.
Now I have seen these in action in Germany and I have travelled in them.
Excellent efficient trains I must say.

But when it came time to buy a model I have hesitated for two reasons.

1. As a model, a bit like in real, they are so sleek, smooth, fast and seem effortless that there is nothing else to impress. By contrast there is something impressive about a steam engine struggling up a grade.
2. My layout with modelled legacy infrastructure does not have the routing built especially for these ICE.

Anyway this model (39710) is apparently a bit special so I decided to buy it.
Produced in year 2000, it was ostensibly only produced as a run of 2,000.
It has a C-sine motor.
And it was originally put together by Siemens and Adtranz as an experimental train to prove certain advances in technology.
(I am guessing that it used the existing ICE trains as a basis).
So the train was ever only 5 cars, but has 5 pantographs so that interested me.
The whole train is powered for lights so all couplings are current conducting.

To test the model I put the power car on the track (the other end is a driving trailer)
I scrolled through the MS1 (still works perfectly) database looking for model 39710.
There it is, all good - select.
The engine makes a click noise, but does not budge.
So I removed the body and checked the circuit board from the user manual noting at the same time how compact the motor is.
Yes - correct DIP switches set.
Tweaked the maximum speed and acceleration pots while power was on, and still nothing.
Hooking up one of the carriages made no difference.

So I opened the driving trailer and noted there was more circuitry and some mechanical device on one axle which is probably a switch for direction of travel lighting.
This made me realise that with the two end units hooked together, it may run.
This I did, and it ran so beautifully it really does replicate the real thing..
There was nothing in the user manual to say that the whole train or at least the two end units must be coupled for it to work.

UserPostedImage
I realise now why these models appeal.
My wife tells me I am easily impressed and OK I get that but yes this model is great.

Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline river6109  
#2 Posted : 08 September 2021 04:42:52(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,053
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Noticed: I only could see 4 pantographs, I think most of them only worked when you added both driving cars (reversing relay).

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 08 September 2021 08:41:11(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,696
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
And it was originally put together by Siemens and Adtranz as an experimental train to prove certain advances in technology.
(I am guessing that it used the existing ICE trains as a basis).
It has two powered end cars of class 410.1, much like those used by ICE 1 and ICE 2.
And the three cars in the middle are prototypes for the new ICE 3 train with propulsion distributed all over the train.
I see five pantographs.

The train now has 3 cars only, the car in the middle is not powered.
I run a three-piece consist with an ICE 2 coach in the middle. I didn't add the extra bits on the roof, like lamps and cameras, to correctly replicate the three-piece version. This could be a future project.

The real thing:
UserPostedImage
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Johnvr  
#4 Posted : 08 September 2021 09:02:51(UTC)
Johnvr

South Africa   
Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,246
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post


So the train was ever only 5 cars, but has 5 pantographs so that interested me.

Kimball


Kimball

I believe that electric locomotives had several pantographs so that they could pick up respective voltage specifications from European countries which were using different voltages for their trains.

Regards
John
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#5 Posted : 08 September 2021 14:43:02(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 7,096
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
[
Anyway this model (39710) is apparently a bit special so I decided to buy it.
Produced in year 2000, it was ostensibly only produced as a run of 2,000.
It has a C-sine motor.
And it was originally put together by Siemens and Adtranz as an experimental train to prove certain advances in technology.
(I am guessing that it used the existing ICE trains as a basis).


I thought the production run was more than 2000, but could well be wrong, I'll need to consult my Kolls.

As you note it is a 'special' train. As noted by Tom (H0) the prototype was used as a test train to test out the distributed drive across the coaches in preparation for the production of the ICE-3. But the model is also special (and I thought Marklin was very clever in choosing to model the ICE-S for this purpose) in that it was the very first model that marklin produced using the C-Sine motor. The box should have a serial number on it and there should be a certificate with a matching serial number.

The model was offered to Insider members who were put into a ballot to decide who would get the limited number available. It also came with a questionnaire for the user to fill in to detail its performance. On return of the questionnaire to Marklin the owner was sent a gift, I believe it was a small multimeter, as a thank you for filling it out.

So, yes, you have a special model, for which there is a one-off prototype, and the model is special as it was the first production of the new style motor.

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Offline bph  
#6 Posted : 08 September 2021 23:27:21(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 605
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
39710- a review of a 20 year old ICE

Well I got this train set from Germany, second-hand, 20 years old.
It is my first ICE train.

So the train was ever only 5 cars, but has 5 pantographs so that interested me.

There was nothing in the user manual to say that the whole train or at least the two end units must be coupled for it to work.

Kimball


congratulate on the "new" 39710, it's indeed a nice model.

Several other train configurations have been tested on the prototype, including a setup with 7 intermediate cars in 2006.
It's recommended to read the german Wikipedia article for a more complete story about the original.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICE_S

you can run the 39710 powered drive unit alone, as long as you run it only "forward", if you need to reverse, then you then need the second unpowered drive unit.

you should be aware that the electronics on the 39710 can sometimes be a bit unstable. (i plan to upgrade my 39710 with a 3rd party driver unit, and an mSD3, because it has started to have uneven driving characteristics).

the site lokmuseum.com/.de writes that Märklin produced 6000 of this train set, but web-hgh.de writes that Märklin produced 7500.
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#7 Posted : 09 September 2021 01:22:31(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,368
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hello all,
The ICE trains are a bit of a mystery for me (both model and real), so thanks to all for filling in some of the blanks to my knowledge.
And I will definitely follow up on the article links on the internet to further my understanding.

Yes I have the certificate which came with the set and it states 1810 of 2000. and the Insider member name.
The number 1810 also shows on the left end of the box lid (if box picture upright).
Maybe Märklin issued the certificate only for the first 2,000 produced.
In which case the production above 2,000 did not get a certificate.

My grand-daughter just travelled from Frankfurt to Aarhus (Denmark) changing at Hamburg.
She did not tell me which ICE type she travelled in, but she did say that the DB were very basic compared to the DSB where the seating is generous.
(The DSB Lyntog were made in Randers, Denmark in 1989).
I think the Danish loading gauge may be larger than that of Germany probably because there were never any tunnels in Denmark prior to about 2000.

DBAG ICE
UserPostedImage

DSB Lyntog (Lightning Train)
UserPostedImage

Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline The Crocodile  
#8 Posted : 10 February 2022 20:00:19(UTC)
The Crocodile

Sweden   
Joined: 22/12/2019(UTC)
Posts: 55
Location: Stockholm
First of all, I hope it's okay to bump an old review. I read this review and learned about the existance of this set, and for some reason I've been thinking about it since. This is strange, because I am usually not a fan of ICEs (or other modern high speed trains for that matter), as for me, half the fun of this hobby is trying out different combinations of wagons for my locos.

That said, for some reason I really liked this set, and I liked this review, and now I have found myself browsing through eBay looking for a 39710 set!LOL
I wanted to say thank you for the review! It does indeed seem like a very special set, with quite a story. If Märklin ever constructs a sort of hall of fame, I think this one deserves it's own spot in it
C-track, temporary layout. I try to run my locos as much as possible:)
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#9 Posted : 10 February 2022 21:39:19(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,368
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hello Croc,
Thanks for bumping the review.
I don't currently know of a 39710 for sale.
But you can always try a reputable English firm at Marklin HO at Hattons.
In some ways I find it better to deal direct with specialist bricks and mortar people who have kept up with internet trading.

They did have a 39710 (with slight damage) before Christmas but they do have other ICE trains listed, some under the EMU category and some under HST category on the linked page.

regards
Kimball

Edited by user 11 February 2022 12:10:49(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline mario54i  
#10 Posted : 11 February 2022 10:28:43(UTC)
mario54i

Italy   
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 264
Location: Torino,
There are 10 39710 currently on ebay.de
Offline Bill L  
#11 Posted : 12 February 2022 06:57:41(UTC)
Bill L

United States   
Joined: 08/12/2021(UTC)
Posts: 32
Location: California, Sonoma County
My set died in the early years. Be very careful with the C-sine motor in this set as it did not have ribbon cables like the later Re460s that came in the 39xxx series, but had hard wires, 5 or 6 of them connected and soldered to the circuit board from the motor. The wires were very sensitive to the motor going on curves, because the wires had to move slightly, and would hesitate in its running speed. I think the wires had poor connection. I finally bought the 2-headed set 3750 Elisabeth set (Approx $120) and used the motor and circuit board from this set. It runs well now but without the C-sine motor. The C-sine motor is expensive as a replacement item.
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#12 Posted : 12 February 2022 10:34:45(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,368
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: Bill L Go to Quoted Post
My set died in the early years. .... I finally bought the 2-headed set 3750 Elisabeth set (Approx $120) and used the motor and circuit board from this set. It runs well now but without the C-sine motor. The C-sine motor is expensive as a replacement item.


Hello Bill,
That is interesting.

When I purchased the 39710 last year, the dealer in Germany also had 2 of the 3750 Elisabeth sets.
And I wondered at the time why Märklin would produce such a set without a train.
Maybe they provided the 3750 as replacements for 39710 (and others?) as you utilized it.

Kimball

HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
Offline The Crocodile  
#13 Posted : 12 February 2022 12:03:06(UTC)
The Crocodile

Sweden   
Joined: 22/12/2019(UTC)
Posts: 55
Location: Stockholm
What would you guys say is the normal price range on these sets? Would 260 euros be considered suspiciously cheap for a fully working set in good condition with its original box? I see most of them cluster around the 350-400 euro area.
C-track, temporary layout. I try to run my locos as much as possible:)
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Offline bph  
#14 Posted : 12 February 2022 12:16:46(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 605
Originally Posted by: The Crocodile Go to Quoted Post
What would you guys say is the normal price range on these sets? Would 260 euros be considered suspiciously cheap for a fully working set in good condition with its original box? I see most of them cluster around the 350-400 euro area.


260 euros seems to be realistic.
e.g.: https://www.ebay.de/itm/353851023957?epid=1742435903&hash=item52632a2255:g:YqMAAOSw92xh3G6v

It is also recommended to take a look at 39710 sold items on eBay, that will show recent sales and the achieved prices.

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Offline The Crocodile  
#15 Posted : 12 February 2022 16:55:19(UTC)
The Crocodile

Sweden   
Joined: 22/12/2019(UTC)
Posts: 55
Location: Stockholm
I just ordered a set! Had to have one after finding out about this set through this review. I find the whole story behind it fascinating, besides, it was made right on my birth yearBigGrin
Like I said earlier, I have never been much into ICEs but this set truly seems special. I have also recently sold 2 Roco locos so this can act as a replacement for them:)

Here's a cutout from the 1999 Märklin catalogue, if anyone is interested!
39710 pdf 1.JPG39710 pdf 2.JPG

Quote:
260 euros seems to be realistic.
e.g.: https://www.ebay.de/itm/...a2255:g:YqMAAOSw92xh3G6v

It is also recommended to take a look at 39710 sold items on eBay, that will show recent sales and the achieved prices.


That was a good tool to use, thank you! I checked the previously sold items and the price seemed very reasonable, plus the seller had 100% positive reviews!
C-track, temporary layout. I try to run my locos as much as possible:)
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#16 Posted : 12 February 2022 22:47:30(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,368
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: The Crocodile Go to Quoted Post
....

Here's a cutout from the 1999 Märklin catalogue, if anyone is interested!
.....


Wow that is great, thanks Croc.

Kimball

HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline Bill L  
#17 Posted : 14 February 2022 01:17:44(UTC)
Bill L

United States   
Joined: 08/12/2021(UTC)
Posts: 32
Location: California, Sonoma County
Hi Kimball:
I agree with you. The 3750 Elisabeth set is a good replacement and work-around. It is easy to remove the motor and decoder circuit board to use as replacement. I recall Marklin released several different ICE sets using the C-sine motor (the big version) in the early 2000. Thanks.
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Offline bph  
#18 Posted : 06 April 2022 14:21:34(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 605
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Bill L Go to Quoted Post
My set died in the early years. .... I finally bought the 2-headed set 3750 Elisabeth set (Approx $120) and used the motor and circuit board from this set. It runs well now but without the C-sine motor. The C-sine motor is expensive as a replacement item.


Hello Bill,
That is interesting.

When I purchased the 39710 last year, the dealer in Germany also had 2 of the 3750 Elisabeth sets.
And I wondered at the time why Märklin would produce such a set without a train.
Maybe they provided the 3750 as replacements for 39710 (and others?) as you utilized it.

Kimball



Hi, the 3750 was released back in 1995. So the electronics are a bit old.

but here the other day I ran across a german site that sells decoder boards that fits the old ICE's. And also led lighting boards for the wagons.
https://www.lokstoredigital.de/hardware/beleuchtung/lodi-wib-ice-m/
https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/dimension=1280x10000:format=jpg/path/s5b4f033edf99a04d/image/ie24fab0ec3a36f01/version/1635703348/image.jpg
https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/dimension=1280x10000:format=jpg/path/s5b4f033edf99a04d/image/i08ff3d43c14a646b/version/1635694045/image.jpg


this might be an option for those who what to upgrade their ICE with a modern decoder and use a conventional motor.
but note that, if your ICE has a LED front light with reversed polarity, it might need an extra solution for that. (eg a relay or the Tams FI-1 Funktions-Inverter, and don't forget the resistor)
if I have got it right, they say on the page that they will release a new board in the future that has a solution for the reversed led front lights.
I would guess that it could also be combined with a Sine-C driver rail4you.ch but it's strongly recommended to have some kind of buffer electronic on the rail4you driver, so it might be a squeeze to fit.

And of course, the Märklin 60973 Pickup Shoe Changeover, or the ESU one, can also be used. but they also require an extra solution for the led front lights if the LED board has "reversed polarity". Personally, I upgraded my 39710, with a driver from rail4you.ch and mSD3, + 60973, 60974, and an extra small relay for the LED. with this solution I could keep the original Sine-C motor. The upgrade works nicely, but it's a bit untidy with all the loose wires.
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