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Offline Bob24  
#1 Posted : 03 August 2021 04:52:01(UTC)
Bob24

United States   
Joined: 09/03/2019(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Ohio, Westerville
I have been looking at options for artificial water on the Noch Cortina lake. Noch Water Drops has the advantage of being reheated with a hairdryer to rework it but it needs to be poured into the lake at about 300 degrees Fahrenheit. Has anyone tried this? Also there is Noch K2 Water Gel but it may not be available in the USA. Woodland Scenics Realistic Water is also an option. There are some positive reviews for it on line. Both Noch and Woodland Scenics make additional Water Effects products to create waves, waterfalls, etc. Sharing any experiences you have had would be appreciated. Thanks, Bob
Offline Toosmall  
#2 Posted : 03 August 2021 10:44:25(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 608
Location: Sydney
I made this water two decades ago for Marklin Modellers of Sydney Z layout. It was clear polyethylene casting resin, used 2 litres. It is a cross section so you see the "end" of the water. So had to have formwork both ends of the river untill the polyethylene set.

I put a bit of blue dye in the water to give it a look of clean mountain water for this scene. You don't need much dye, it was just a bit of blue from a 150g can of car touch up paint. This polyethylene had about 15 to 20 minutes to go off before the surface was springy, so I had to have everything absolutely ready. No leaks of any kind. Best to silicone on formwork a day before and made sure it won't move.

You have to have plenty of multiple tools & implements, bits of ice cream sticks, wire, brushes to chuck out, etc, to massage the water surface so you can simply drop one tool and grab another. Pre think out the look and your process of the water as you will not have time to think while it is setting, or try to fix anything. The riverbed was all layed out and bridge pylons fastened in position, but without the actual finished bridge as it would be in the way.

I had done a fair bit of casting polyethylene so had a fairly good feel for it, but this was the first river I did, actually the only one. I was very happy with the end result. Plan out your whole process. Good multiple lighting so you can see the surface finish, there is no time to move a light.

If you want a boat on the water I would mount it at the correct height. You won't have the time or free hands to hold it in position. Everything needs to be done.

I would practice first if you haven't used polyethylene so you don't mess up the actual scene. Polyethylene is cheap enough to practice with.

If you feel you are not ready for the pour put it off for the next day.

Water1.jpg

Water2.jpg
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Offline pcbpoppy  
#3 Posted : 03 August 2021 13:46:35(UTC)
pcbpoppy

United States   
Joined: 11/06/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1
Location: Florida, Panama City
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Zme
Offline DaleSchultz  
#4 Posted : 03 August 2021 14:23:56(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
I used EnviroTex Lite ® and the Woodland Scenics Water Effects product for my lakes and rivers.

I describe the steps I used for the lake at https://ca bin-layout.mixmox.com/2018/06/makingalake.html
and for the river and water falls at https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com/2017/03/Making-river-and-waterfall.html

I avoid adding blue, it is extremely rare for a river to look blue. If you want blue sky reflection, paint your ceiling above the layout blue.

IMG_5539.JPG

Last year I presented to the ETE club and the slide deck can be viewed here:

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/e/2PACX-1vRgCEVmu2P9hAH9EAXoHp7nl5yHDqs0jPV9sORhTflvMb1ZScK1zJrwFRtdxCsBaeiY4PLcSXcvfPQ1/pub?start=false&loop=false&delayms=3000
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline Zme  
#5 Posted : 03 August 2021 19:55:17(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 760
Location: West Texas
Hello, fantastic topic. There definitely is more than one option to consider, that is certain.

I used the Woodland Scenic, Realistic Water product. The river bed was created with plaster sheets and rock and various under water debris added. I covered with with some coloring and then poured in the Woodland Scenic product. The entire area must be sealed before using this as it will flow out and all will be lost. When it dried, I was not satisfied with the color, and used SceneARama blue realistic water here and there to add a bit of blue as I did not want to paint the ceiling. When this dried, white acrylic paint was used to add rapids for the impression of moving water.


UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

Best wishes

Dwight
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#6 Posted : 03 August 2021 21:33:41(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Another possibility is to look at Martin of Swedens videos which have some very good ones on doing water without any of those fancy products.

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Offline marklinist5999  
#7 Posted : 03 August 2021 22:15:40(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,074
Location: Michigan, Troy
Yes Alan, his are also excellent. I accidentally made rapids in my Bietschtahl valley stream. I was trying to dry the pourable water faster so I could pour another coat with a lamp. It touched the water and bubbled it up.
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Offline Bob24  
#8 Posted : 05 August 2021 03:10:51(UTC)
Bob24

United States   
Joined: 09/03/2019(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Ohio, Westerville
16281234017356103369394155074146.jpg
Thanks for all the ideas. I looked over the videos. I am filling a lake that needs to be about 3/8 inches deep on z scale preformed layout. Can EnviroTex Lite be applied to this depth in one pour? With Woodland Scenics Realistic Water they suggest 1/8 inches deep at a time and letting it dry for 24 hours. I also will be adding plants and rocks and painting some on the lake bottom and shore.
Offline Toosmall  
#9 Posted : 05 August 2021 06:55:39(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 608
Location: Sydney
The actual water can look plain and you can get away with it, as long as the materials and growies around it look interesting, and if transparent, in it.

IMG_65999.jpg
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#10 Posted : 05 August 2021 13:08:38(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Bob24 Go to Quoted Post

Thanks for all the ideas. I looked over the videos. I am filling a lake that needs to be about 3/8 inches deep on z scale preformed layout. Can EnviroTex Lite be applied to this depth in one pour? With Woodland Scenics Realistic Water they suggest 1/8 inches deep at a time and letting it dry for 24 hours. I also will be adding plants and rocks and painting some on the lake bottom and shore.


Using the Noch preforms I would be cautious about any product that requires heating to make it liquid, or that generates heat as it cures (epoxy will do this) as I don't know what temperature the preforms are formed at. You may find that the preform will distort or even end up with a hole in it worst case

I would be tempted to use a piece of very thin plywood or balsa shaped to fill the lake at the depth you require then paint the top, glue it in and then detail the water in a manner similar to marklinofSwedens videos.

If you have some way of verifying that the Noch preform is heat resistant then by all means go for it with one of the epoxy systems.

What do Nochs own videos show for doing this sort of thing? Try the Noch Youtube channel. I know that Noch do have a product in their inventory for doing water, I think it is similar to one of the American ones.
Offline DaleSchultz  
#11 Posted : 05 August 2021 14:44:58(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
why do you want to do it in one pour?
It is hard to judge the volume you need and you cant mix and pour too much at a time, so I would aim for 2 pours.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline Zme  
#12 Posted : 07 August 2021 01:06:20(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 760
Location: West Texas
Hi. As I recall, the entire water area should be poured at one time, otherwise you might be able to see the line between the pours.

The main concern I had was preventing the Realistic Water from leaking out. On a preformed layout, this might not be that hard to do.

When I was disappointed with the coloring of the river, I added that other product with blue in it and it was just a small layer, so it was not a problem.

Best wishes, let us know how it works out.

Dwight
Offline Toosmall  
#13 Posted : 07 August 2021 02:07:57(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 608
Location: Sydney
These days you have more options to calculate volume. Create a 3d measurement and the computer will calculate the volume.

Previously line the space with a layer of Gladwrap, 3 or so layers for safety just in case of a leak. Fill with water. Mop it up & weight it for volume. Allow say 5% for contours over seabed growies. Quick and Easy.
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Offline marklinist5999  
#14 Posted : 07 August 2021 02:23:05(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,074
Location: Michigan, Troy
Is it basically polyurethane? I tried pouring it thick. Took forever to dry. Water has lines, ripples, bubbles.
Offline Toosmall  
#15 Posted : 07 August 2021 04:06:04(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 608
Location: Sydney
You need to use casting polyethylene mixed thoroughly making sure that the hardener is incorporated getting material on the side of the container mixed in, but without mixing in air. A tongue depressor, a wider ice cream stick, works well for mixing. Don't take too long as it eats into your setting time to massage the surface.
Offline Bob24  
#16 Posted : 08 August 2021 19:54:31(UTC)
Bob24

United States   
Joined: 09/03/2019(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Ohio, Westerville
A while ago I did contact Noch. They said Water Drops are not suitable for Cortina because the heat (300 degrees Fahrenheit) could damage the layout. They recommended using K2 Water Gel, but noted it was not allowed in the US. I believe the lake on the Noch Cortina was designed to have actual water pumped up the mountain using Noch 60150 water pump and then having it cascade down into the lake. Prehaps this is why the lake is so deep. I don't think I'll go that route.
It's time to experiment with some prototypes. I liked the tips of using balsa wood or drywall plaster for a base, plus numerous other ideas.
Thanks again!
Offline Zme  
#17 Posted : 10 August 2021 04:43:08(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 760
Location: West Texas
Hello

I believe the Woodlands scenic item is basically from a bottle ready to pour.

“Riverbed” prep would be an important task, for a realistic look and to prevent leakage.

I shouldn’t have mixed their product with the ScenaRama but it turned out it did not react and was okay.

Hope everything works out.

Dwight
Offline marklinist5999  
#18 Posted : 10 August 2021 05:01:34(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,074
Location: Michigan, Troy
Woodland Scenic makes both ready to pour and mix as needed.
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Zme
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