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Offline wildstix  
#1 Posted : 26 May 2021 11:10:26(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 36
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Hello everyone, I hope you're doing well,

After years of staying in the boxes, I'm going to recommission my Marklin Z this year.
Because I have space and the means, I'm thinking to expand my layout from my original oval layout. My idea is to add an L shape to my main oval layout.
I'm sorry for the sketch, but I hope it helps you to understand my plan.
IMG_0337.jpeg
I'll have 4 manual turnouts and the rest will be electric. For this layout, I'm planning to use either one of my old controllers, 6701, and 37670. Both are still working well.

My concern now is, with the added L, the whole layout dimension will be 2,7m (8,8 feet) x 1,8m (5,9 feet), do I need a booster to help my controller or it would still be enough to use 1 controller?
So I'm not worried about powering the turnouts, I'm just worried if my controller won't be enough to power the whole track layout. Thank you before! 🙏
Oka aka W. Kapriandi
8800 Dampflok BR 89
8875 Diesellok BR 216
8892 Schnellzuglokomotiven
88484 Elektrolokomotive Re 14
Offline Carim  
#2 Posted : 26 May 2021 14:14:40(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: London
If using one controller to power one loco, you will not need any booster. What I would suggest is having a number of track feeds - the exact number will depend on how you are designing the wiring setup and the state of your track (the fishplates may not be conducting power as well as brand new ones). But a feed every 1m of track can't hurt.

Carim
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Carim
Offline wildstix  
#3 Posted : 26 May 2021 20:02:41(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 36
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Originally Posted by: Carim Go to Quoted Post
If using one controller to power one loco, you will not need any booster. What I would suggest is having a number of track feeds - the exact number will depend on how you are designing the wiring setup and the state of your track (the fishplates may not be conducting power as well as brand new ones). But a feed every 1m of track can't hurt.

Carim


Well, I'm planning to run 2 locomotives at the same time and if I can manage the traffic, maybe 3 at the same time. With that in mind, is the extra track feed still the wisest choice?
Oka aka W. Kapriandi
8800 Dampflok BR 89
8875 Diesellok BR 216
8892 Schnellzuglokomotiven
88484 Elektrolokomotive Re 14
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by wildstix
Offline Carim  
#4 Posted : 27 May 2021 17:42:53(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: London
Originally Posted by: wildstix Go to Quoted Post
I'm planning to run 2 locomotives at the same time and if I can manage the traffic, maybe 3 at the same time. With that in mind, is the extra track feed still the wisest choice?


I am not sure what you are trying to achieve. Do you want to hook up one electrical circuit with one controller and run multiple locos on that? If so, you will have to find out the max amps that the controllers can handle and then what is the draw of each loco (it will vary from loco to loco).

These are analogue controllers - if you put multiple locos on the same circuit controlled by one of these controllers, you will not have independent control of each individual loco.

In my original answer, I had assumed that you were setting up two separate, electrical circuits with one loco on each.

Carim
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Offline hxmiesa  
#5 Posted : 27 May 2021 18:26:26(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,264
Location: Spain
I think that you are mixing concepts?!
You are running analogue, and do not need boosters.
What you need, is a trafo/power-supply for each loco that you want to run.
Even if your controllers can power more than one loco, they will still be running with the same speed set from the controller. -So one per lok is better.
If you are running an automated self-blocking signal-system, these things change a little, but I don't know if that is your case. I suppose that you are NOT doing that.

You should definitely run a feeder wire to the each track for every meter. It's an absolute must!!!

You could use your existing controllers for the two closed circuits in your drawing, and then one additional for all the shunting/industri/siding tracks. That way you can fiddle around manually, while the trains run undisturbed on the main lines.

Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline wildstix  
#6 Posted : 28 May 2021 15:04:45(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 36
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Hey folks!

Thank you so much for those who have kindly shared their inputs and suggestions, truly appreciate it! Especially thank you for letting me know about the track feeder.
After reading and understanding what I’m facing and the feasibility to do it, I decided to scrap my track plan and I will switch to a more conservative track plan (dog bone inspired loop with only 1 shunting and 2 industries). Maybe as time pass and I add more of my collection, I would be able to pull off my original track plan idea.


Originally Posted by: Carim Go to Quoted Post
I am not sure what you are trying to achieve. Do you want to hook up one electrical circuit with one controller and run multiple locos on that? If so, you will have to find out the max amps that the controllers can handle and then what is the draw of each loco (it will vary from loco to loco).

These are analogue controllers - if you put multiple locos on the same circuit controlled by one of these controllers, you will not have independent control of each individual loco.

In my original answer, I had assumed that you were setting up two separate, electrical circuits with one loco on each.

Carim

In all honesty, I’m not sure what I’m trying to achieve either 😥. I need inputs to refine my plan because, after years of absence from doing train modeling (since 1990), I don’t have an idea of what is feasible or not anymore. Thank you for your inputs Carim, they help!



Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
I think that you are mixing concepts?!
You are running analogue, and do not need boosters.
What you need, is a trafo/power-supply for each loco that you want to run.
Even if your controllers can power more than one loco, they will still be running with the same speed set from the controller. -So one per lok is better.
If you are running an automated self-blocking signal-system, these things change a little, but I don't know if that is your case. I suppose that you are NOT doing that.

You should definitely run a feeder wire to the each track for every meter. It's an absolute must!!!

You could use your existing controllers for the two closed circuits in your drawing, and then one additional for all the shunting/industri/siding tracks. That way you can fiddle around manually, while the trains run undisturbed on the main lines.


Thanks for the clarification, Henrik! Yes, you are right! I was mixing concepts because of my unfamiliarity with today’s setup options. I thought the booster also needed for analogue too in a large track plan. Apparently, I misunderstood.
You are also right about the automated self-blocking signal-system, I am not doing that at the moment, my concern now only to make my locomotives move. When that settled, I’m vying for the automated self-blocking signal-system in the future.
Oka aka W. Kapriandi
8800 Dampflok BR 89
8875 Diesellok BR 216
8892 Schnellzuglokomotiven
88484 Elektrolokomotive Re 14
Offline Carim  
#7 Posted : 28 May 2021 15:55:05(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: London
I have quickly annotated your diagram to show you how to wire it to get two locos running:

Indonesia layout wiring.jpg

Carim
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Offline wildstix  
#8 Posted : 28 May 2021 16:41:03(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 36
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Originally Posted by: Carim Go to Quoted Post
I have quickly annotated your diagram to show you how to wire it to get two locos running:

Indonesia layout wiring.jpg

Carim


This is awesome!!! Can't thank you enough for your help 😯
btw, I never experienced isolating/insulated things before...is there any tutorial video for this?
Oka aka W. Kapriandi
8800 Dampflok BR 89
8875 Diesellok BR 216
8892 Schnellzuglokomotiven
88484 Elektrolokomotive Re 14
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by wildstix
Offline Carim  
#9 Posted : 28 May 2021 18:01:13(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: London
See this site: https://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/index.html

and look under the "electrical" tab.

Carim
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Offline phils2um  
#10 Posted : 28 May 2021 18:33:38(UTC)
phils2um

United States   
Joined: 12/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 104
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: Carim Go to Quoted Post
I have quickly annotated your diagram to show you how to wire it to get two locos running:

Indonesia layout wiring.jpg

Carim


Carim has provided a good suggestion! I've two additional suggestions. First, I would add more feeders on each loop! This will assure better running with less chance of voltage drop caused by poor track joiner connections. Second, I would isolate the feeder sections into blocks at the track with 8588 isolating track sections or 8954 insulating track joiners. You can jumper feeds to each block initially. This will help prepare you for block control (and more trains!) in the future. Ideally, you would incorporate contact track sections in your planning now too.

Google model railroad analog block control for more understanding.
Phil S.
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Offline wildstix  
#11 Posted : 29 May 2021 16:41:02(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 36
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Originally Posted by: Carim Go to Quoted Post
See this site: https://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/index.html

and look under the "electrical" tab.

Carim


Thank you!!! I'm still hoping there's a tutorial video somewhere (been googling), because I'm more of a visual learner 😊
Oka aka W. Kapriandi
8800 Dampflok BR 89
8875 Diesellok BR 216
8892 Schnellzuglokomotiven
88484 Elektrolokomotive Re 14
Offline wildstix  
#12 Posted : 29 May 2021 16:45:02(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 36
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Originally Posted by: phils2um Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Carim Go to Quoted Post
I have quickly annotated your diagram to show you how to wire it to get two locos running:

Indonesia layout wiring.jpg

Carim


Carim has provided a good suggestion! I've two additional suggestions. First, I would add more feeders on each loop! This will assure better running with less chance of voltage drop caused by poor track joiner connections. Second, I would isolate the feeder sections into blocks at the track with 8588 isolating track sections or 8954 insulating track joiners. You can jumper feeds to each block initially. This will help prepare you for block control (and more trains!) in the future. Ideally, you would incorporate contact track sections in your planning now too.

Google model railroad analog block control for more understanding.


Thank you for the suggestions, Phil! Knowing the article number truly cut down my googling to 50% giving me more time to do everything else 😊
Will look into the block control as I built my layout 👍
Oka aka W. Kapriandi
8800 Dampflok BR 89
8875 Diesellok BR 216
8892 Schnellzuglokomotiven
88484 Elektrolokomotive Re 14
Offline wildstix  
#13 Posted : 29 May 2021 16:56:36(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 36
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
One more question, guys,

I think I need a distribution plate, and from the zscale.info website, the suggestion is 7209. However, I think the info is a bit outdated as now I can't find 7209 except the used ones. I'm pretty skeptical to utilize them to power up my track.
So, now there's 72090 distribution plate. Is it the same as 7209? Can I use it for my Z scale?
Oka aka W. Kapriandi
8800 Dampflok BR 89
8875 Diesellok BR 216
8892 Schnellzuglokomotiven
88484 Elektrolokomotive Re 14
Offline Carim  
#14 Posted : 29 May 2021 18:38:51(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: London
Why don't you just get a strip of copper and solder all your wires to it? However, answering your specific question, I think that 72090 is the current version of the distribution strip and I don't see why it would not work for Z scale wiring. But if you use it, you have to find the correct plugs that fit it.

Carim
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Offline wildstix  
#15 Posted : 01 June 2021 11:52:41(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 36
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Originally Posted by: Carim Go to Quoted Post
Why don't you just get a strip of copper and solder all your wires to it?

Firstly, I'm not that good with electrical thingy...but I can try this if I can't find any distribution plate 👍

Originally Posted by: Carim Go to Quoted Post
However, answering your specific question, I think that 72090 is the current version of the distribution strip and I don't see why it would not work for Z scale wiring. But if you use it, you have to find the correct plugs that fit it.

Carim

yeah, I heard that the plugs are somewhat different from the old ones. Thank you for the inputs, Carim!
Oka aka W. Kapriandi
8800 Dampflok BR 89
8875 Diesellok BR 216
8892 Schnellzuglokomotiven
88484 Elektrolokomotive Re 14
Offline Carim  
#16 Posted : 01 June 2021 16:24:15(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: London
Originally Posted by: wildstix Go to Quoted Post

Firstly, I'm not that good with electrical thingy...


Just watch a few videos on YouTube and then practice on small bits of wire & copper. After ten or twenty goes, you will be better.

Carim
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Offline wildstix  
#17 Posted : 01 July 2021 05:59:37(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 36
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Hi all!

So after considering your inputs, I have decided not to pursue my original layout idea for now. But that didn't stop me from going for another giant layout 😅
By combining my old and new tracks, I followed a layout from Märklin and this is what I got.
IMG_0453.jpeg
I use 2 feeder tracks for the layout, around 1m apart, and will try it out soon to see if that is enough to power the layout. My guess is, I will need 1 more feeder track for this 🤔

Anyways, this is how it came to be, track plan result

Edited by user 10 July 2021 09:14:48(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Oka aka W. Kapriandi
8800 Dampflok BR 89
8875 Diesellok BR 216
8892 Schnellzuglokomotiven
88484 Elektrolokomotive Re 14
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