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Offline Mr. Ron  
#1 Posted : 05 March 2021 19:34:46(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 68
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
I am 86 and new at Marklin trains. I have built a layout frame that measures approximately 11' x 12'. The top is 3/8" plywood over a 1x4 frame. So far, so good. I am laying track now and need to run wiring to the control point. I know that most modelers run their wiring BELOW the top, but due to my advanced age, it would be next to impossible for me to do so (bad back, weak knees, etc). My thought is to run all wiring on TOP of the layout, so I can make up all electrical connections without having to go under the bench. Has anyone else done this? I would have to hide the wiring somehow. What would be a good way to do this. I will be using a #14 gage wire as a buss to connect track wires to; any ideas? I also need to run wiring for turnouts and other controls and need to hide this wiring.
Offline marklinist5999  
#2 Posted : 05 March 2021 20:06:42(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 274
Location: Michigan, Troy
Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
I am 86 and new at Marklin trains. I have built a layout frame that measures approximately 11' x 12'. The top is 3/8" plywood over a 1x4 frame. So far, so good. I am laying track now and need to run wiring to the control point. I know that most modelers run their wiring BELOW the top, but due to my advanced age, it would be next to impossible for me to do so (bad back, weak knees, etc). My thought is to run all wiring on TOP of the layout, so I can make up all electrical connections without having to go under the bench. Has anyone else done this? I would have to hide the wiring somehow. What would be a good way to do this. I will be using a #14 gage wire as a buss to connect track wires to; any ideas? I also need to run wiring for turnouts and other controls and need to hide this wiring.
First of sir, how is your wife doing? Better I hope.
Ok, ! I would use silicone 18 or 20 gague wire. It's the most resiliant. Go under the tracks to the spade connectors for C track power feeds. If there is a spot where the loco. slows down, run a secoond feeder wire near there. Do the same for turnouts, signals, etc. if appliacable.
Have you overlaid the plywood with a sound insulating surface like homosote foam, thin carpet pad, or a marine brown or black vynil fabric?
If you are building any grades, you can apply theose to ramps under the track. Some prefer thin cork. K track has no road bed ballast, so the thicker bevelled cork can be used. Once you have made all connections and tested them, you can scre the tracks down, and cover the wiring with landscape materials. Paper, thin foam, etc. before gluing static grasses, plastering, or painting.
This may not be reccomened by some others, but given your situation, I think it will work, and give you enjoyment of your layout. You can do quite a bit with that size.

Offline Mr. Ron  
#3 Posted : 05 March 2021 20:48:18(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 68
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
Quote:
First of sir, how is your wife doing? Better I hope.
Ok, ! I would use silicone 18 or 20 gague wire. It's the most resiliant. Go under the tracks to the spade connectors for C track power feeds. If there is a spot where the loco. slows down, run a secoond feeder wire near there. Do the same for turnouts, signals, etc. if appliacable.
Have you overlaid the plywood with a sound insulating surface like homosote foam, thin carpet pad, or a marine brown or black vynil fabric?
If you are building any grades, you can apply theose to ramps under the track. Some prefer thin cork. K track has no road bed ballast, so the thicker bevelled cork can be used. Once you have made all connections and tested them, you can scre the tracks down, and cover the wiring with landscape materials. Paper, thin foam, etc. before gluing static grasses, plastering, or painting.
This may not be reccomened by some others, but given your situation, I think it will work, and give you enjoyment of your layout. You can do quite a bit with that size.


Thank you for your response. My wife is doing much better. She is up and walking better. Looking back at others dealing with old age, I feel so thankful for my longtime interest in trains. That has kept me alive so far. I know that others without a consuming interest in something/anything, are in danger of a short life without something to occupy their mind. Model railroading certainly fills that void. Off course, I have other interests that I am passionate about (music being one of them) and that keeps me occupied and not dwelling on old age and it's problems. I don't know how old you are, but I know model railroading will serve you well as you get older.

I will be pursuing the above-the-top wiring and solve problems as they appear. My entire life has been one of solving problems, so I am confident that I will work out any problems that crop up.
thanks 8 users liked this useful post by Mr. Ron
Offline marklinist5999  
#4 Posted : 05 March 2021 22:24:52(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 274
Location: Michigan, Troy
Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
Quote:
First of sir, how is your wife doing? Better I hope.
Ok, ! I would use silicone 18 or 20 gague wire. It's the most resiliant. Go under the tracks to the spade connectors for C track power feeds. If there is a spot where the loco. slows down, run a secoond feeder wire near there. Do the same for turnouts, signals, etc. if appliacable.
Have you overlaid the plywood with a sound insulating surface like homosote foam, thin carpet pad, or a marine brown or black vynil fabric?
If you are building any grades, you can apply theose to ramps under the track. Some prefer thin cork. K track has no road bed ballast, so the thicker bevelled cork can be used. Once you have made all connections and tested them, you can scre the tracks down, and cover the wiring with landscape materials. Paper, thin foam, etc. before gluing static grasses, plastering, or painting.
This may not be reccomened by some others, but given your situation, I think it will work, and give you enjoyment of your layout. You can do quite a bit with that size.


Thank you for your response. My wife is doing much better. She is up and walking better. Looking back at others dealing with old age, I feel so thankful for my longtime interest in trains. That has kept me alive so far. I know that others without a consuming interest in something/anything, are in danger of a short life without something to occupy their mind. Model railroading certainly fills that void. Off course, I have other interests that I am passionate about (music being one of them) and that keeps me occupied and not dwelling on old age and it's problems. I don't know how old you are, but I know model railroading will serve you well as you get older.

I will be pursuing the above-the-top wiring and solve problems as they appear. My entire life has been one of solving problems, so I am confident that I will work out any problems that crop up.
Glad to hear she is better!
I am only 61 this month. I began with Marklin in 1991. I know a bit about problem solving. I was a produce buyer for an 85 store food chain. Recently retired. I am very active. I work out, lift weights, do house and yard work too. I've also been hospital volunteer.
Offline David Dewar  
#5 Posted : 05 March 2021 23:09:52(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,080
Location: Scotland
If I have to put a wire from the far some of the layout to a control on the other side I attach something to the end of the wire and just throw under the layout form one side to the other. Hedges are very good for hiding wire. I am 79 and clearly not as fit as yourself so well done.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline Copenhagen  
#6 Posted : 06 March 2021 00:00:31(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 133
If the layout is 11' x 12' there's got to be an opening in the middle? Or else things will be out of reach? A way to get under baseboard could be to have a good height on it and then have a kind of dolly to sit on while getting hold of the wires underneath and leading them to the edges of the layout.
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Offline perz  
#7 Posted : 06 March 2021 00:10:23(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,568
Location: Sweden
One idea is to embed plastic tubes in the landscape, to run the wires through. You can have a mesh of tubes and have connection points that you hide e.g. under houses. I haven't tested exactly this, but I have run some of the wiring through plastic tubes in the two layouts I have built so far.

Regards
Per
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by perz
Offline JohnjeanB  
#8 Posted : 06 March 2021 01:30:50(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,432
Location: Paris, France
Hi Mr Ron
One possibility for you is to make a sort of long chair mounted on casters: an horizontal rectangle with another rectangle to rest your back and your head. This one need to be adjustable so that you work at a confortable distance
wiring helper.png
You can even manage to attach a powerful LED light and some extra surface to leave tools and wire coil
This is frequently used by mechanics to crawl under a car.
Don't laugh it is an idea I will make for me (75 and tired of crawling under the table) and when properly done, it is much more confortable on this than being bent over the table

Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
Offline rrf  
#9 Posted : 06 March 2021 15:19:27(UTC)
rrf

United States   
Joined: 15/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 296
Location: Silver Spring, Maryland USA
Hello Mr. Ron,

In preparation for when I will have limited mobility, wire access has been an important consideration for the modular layout furniture I am building. A primary design principle is that all wire runs are along the front edge of the furniture where I will be able to access them easily, from a seated position. Only final runs from the edge to the track or an accessory violate this rule. A corollary to this principle is that visible, easily accessible, clean, well organized wiring and digital components (decoders, braking modules, etc.) are a desirable feature. So both are displayed prominently on the layout's front edge, just below the layout's top (scenery) level.

Recently I have adopted a few new wiring ideas that may also be helpful. The first is 3M Command brand wire clips. Normally used for outdoor holiday lights, they work extremely well on model railroad bench work. The "Command" strips stick quite well to wood and can be easily removed if you wish to reposition a clip. 3M even gives you extra strips, just for this eventuality.

Next, is silicon insulated wires. After years of resistance, I finally ordered some 18 Gauge silicon hook up wire for the main bus of our Christmas layout. It's now a standard and I'm never going back. BTW, thank you to the forum member who pointed out that 18 gauge is the thickest wire that still can be used with Märklin plugs and sockets.

Finally, for my wife's new living room N Scale shelf layout I have adopted a concept from Woodland Scenics. (Yes, beautiful wife actually decided she wants to build a small layout of her own ... so I gave her a MiniTrix MS2 Starter set for her recent birthday and the 2-6-0 New York Central DCC steam lok she picked out arrived two days ago!) I mounted her track on top of Styrofoam risers. This makes it easy to lay wires on top of her shelf, that can pass cleanly under track without causing problems. The wires can be hidden under scenery modules also mounted on Stryofoam (she's already working on her first one!).

I hope you find some of these ideas useful. Best of luck with your layout build.
Rob
Mackenrode Wende Bahn
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by rrf
Offline michelvr  
#10 Posted : 06 March 2021 15:57:50(UTC)
michelvr


Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,196
Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
I am 86 and new at Marklin trains. I have built a layout frame that measures approximately 11' x 12'. The top is 3/8" plywood over a 1x4 frame. So far, so good. I am laying track now and need to run wiring to the control point. I know that most modelers run their wiring BELOW the top, but due to my advanced age, it would be next to impossible for me to do so (bad back, weak knees, etc). My thought is to run all wiring on TOP of the layout, so I can make up all electrical connections without having to go under the bench. Has anyone else done this? I would have to hide the wiring somehow. What would be a good way to do this. I will be using a #14 gage wire as a buss to connect track wires to; any ideas? I also need to run wiring for turnouts and other controls and need to hide this wiring.


Hello Mr. Ron,

Your frame is not what I would consider a large layout. I gave your post a really good thinking over and I think if we approach your layout logically and use the technology Märklin has to your advantage. It can be done with only two wires. My suggestion is to utilize the principle KISS. Keep it Simple, Smart. What that implies is take the advantage of Märklin’s digital components to it’s fullest capacity. Using only two wires connected to the track and controller and have all your turnouts automated by using the switch machines and digital decoder installed under the C track. It should work and it’s designed to work so that is my suggestion. In truth Märklin has make it smart for us to eliminate wires but it seems that we are still not fully appreciating the advantages of that simplicity.

Now I know some enthusiasts may not agree but it is possible and doable. The only reason you would need to use more wires is if you want to automate your layout which was not mentioned in your post.

Edited by user 06 March 2021 20:55:03(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

thanks 4 users liked this useful post by michelvr
Offline Rwill  
#11 Posted : 06 March 2021 17:19:34(UTC)
Rwill

United Kingdom   
Joined: 04/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 723
Location: England, London
I totally agree with Michel and this approach reflects somewhat my layout. I am 70 years old – of rather large frame - and during the past three years have had both knees replaced. This means I can walk, cycle and swim as desired but kneeling, squatting and bending down can be more than troublesome. Some time ago after negotiation with management the Railway layout was moved from a small spare bedroom to the dining room which is much bigger. However, one condition was that the large dining table remained and must not be abused. So now I have a ten foot by ten foot L shaped layout, more than half of which sits on a plywood “box “ on the table , so no access underneath the layout. It fits into the corner of the room, so access is “difficult” in the far corners. I think I spend half my railway time on Scarm and the other half on the layout- so things change frequently as a new idea is tried out. So my layout is green covered wood with some nominal buildings – the station, the engine shed, the goods shed simply placed on the layout. Almost all recent expansion has been with 24802 set which comprise two turnouts and some useful track usually obtainable at quite a good price. So, the turnouts are factory fitted with decoder motor and track power connected. Am a small aside I have never touch wood had a single problem with any of this unlike the infamous 74492 etc problems. I have also recently started to buy the latest digital signals which are wired into the track for power. I still have some kit run in fours to K83 and M83 but I wire these in a cluster and take the track power nearby. So my central station is wired simply once to the track. The only thing that can’t fit this is contact tracks and single wires to an S88
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Offline aos  
#12 Posted : 07 March 2021 13:15:16(UTC)
aos

Scotland   
Joined: 03/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 506
Location: Livingston, Scotland
Hi Ronald, My wife found this on Ebay and I am actually buying one myself as I am 72. Take a looksee:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/i...:g:B8QAAOSw5k1cchio#rwid
Offline Copenhagen  
#13 Posted : 07 March 2021 14:59:13(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 133
Looking over Mr. Ron's previous posts I suspect that he is running analog not digital.
Offline Mr. Ron  
#14 Posted : 07 March 2021 18:46:25(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 68
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
Looking over Mr. Ron's previous posts I suspect that he is running analog not digital.

You are correct. I am going to run analog, at least for the present.



Hi Ronald, My wife found this on Ebay and I am actually buying one myself as I am 72. Take a looksee:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/i...:g:B8QAAOSw5k1cchio#rwid
I thought about a creeper before, but the problem is getting down to the floor and getting back up. At present, I am planning on running a buss along the front edge of the framework and runing jumper wires to the buss using "suitcase" connectors. This will minimize my having to get under the layout. I'm sure I will discover innovative ways to do the wiring as I go along.
Thank you all for your input and response to my question. It's nice to know that this fellowship of model railroaders exists, as we all need help at some time. My layout is an around the room configuration with a peninsular extending to the middle of the room. As soon as I can figure out how to post a picture of my layout, I will do so. When I was working, I couldn't wait until the day I could retire and have all the free time in the world to pursue my hobby, but now that I am retired, I don't seem to have all the time that I thought I would have. One thing after another pops up requiring me to detour away from the hobby. Does anyone else find that retirement isn't as free from other concerns as one may have thought?
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#15 Posted : 07 March 2021 19:05:59(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,695
I agree running the bus wires along the front/back and then connecting to them is the way to go...

I have been using these for about 20 years and thoroughly recommend them:

https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com/2002/02/wiring-track-feeds-to-bus-wires.html

I don't do any soldering upside down in a poorly lit place.

Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
Offline rbw993  
#16 Posted : 07 March 2021 23:30:09(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 793
Good call Dale. Dripping hot metal on one's self is generally a bad idea!
Offline Copenhagen  
#17 Posted : 08 March 2021 13:24:36(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 133
Another thing (which you probably already know) is that it'll probably take a long while of practicing and experimenting before you decide on how the layout should be. So it could be a good idea to keep the wires on top of the baseboard in the beginning.
You can also get wires with for example three or two wires in the same cable which will reduce the clutter on, or under, the table. One example is Brawa 3172 (google it). I don't know what's needed for analog operation... and what's easily available in the USA.
Offline Mr. Ron  
#18 Posted : 16 March 2021 20:36:13(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 68
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
I have been exploring a means of wiring turnouts so the wires do not show. Since the turnouts (16 in all) are at various distances from the main control panel, that means you must have separate runs of cable from each turnout back to the control panel. A buss won't work except for the yellow common wire.; the other two must be separate. Am I making any sense so far? I thought about routing the 2 solenoid wires within the base of the M tracks, but not sure if the M track section would be large enough to accommodate wiring for 16 turnouts (32 wires). It's either that or running the wires below the top or on the top. Running the wires disguised as telephone lines on telephone poles along the right-of-way would certainly look authentic, but extremely tedious to accomplish. Any thoughts on how to run turnout wires and what gauge of wire to use? The smaller the better. The farthest away of turnouts to the control panel is about 35'. Routing wires within the base of the track would be ideal, but would be a problem if there is a fault in the wiring.
Offline scraigen  
#19 Posted : 16 March 2021 20:48:12(UTC)
scraigen


Joined: 29/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 286
Location: Sheffield,
Running them within the track base is going to get frustrating extremely quickly.
As telegraph wires also to my mind seems v tedious also.
You could run them alongside the track back to a signal box see Dale’s excellent website for what I mean https://cabin-layout.mix...le-ducts-Kabelkanal.html then from the signal box route them under a road or something back to your control centre. Maybe from a central point like signal tower you could connect to ribbon cable which would lie flat and tidy.
You’re going to have to use some imagination but at the same time if it sounds too complicated then it probably is, no right or wrong answers do what you feel is right.
You can always have the infill between tracks as very shallow hills or lift out panels so your wires are on top of the baseboard but under your scenery.
Must build something
Offline perz  
#20 Posted : 16 March 2021 22:42:17(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,568
Location: Sweden
A way to minimize the mess when you have to run many wires together is to use flat cable. I have replaced all the original wires on my M track switches with 3-wire flat cables. Even if it is just a 3-to-1 reduction it makes it much easier.

Regards
Per
Offline Mr. Ron  
#21 Posted : 17 March 2021 01:06:10(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 68
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
I did some calculations and find that I need around 825' of 2 conductor wire to wire up 17 turnouts. Does this sound like a reasonable amount of wire for a layout measuring roughly 11'x12'? That will cost a good amount of money. The only way I can cut down wiring is to place the turnout control close to the turnout away from the control panel.
Offline perz  
#22 Posted : 17 March 2021 19:24:53(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,568
Location: Sweden
Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
I did some calculations and find that I need around 825' of 2 conductor wire to wire up 17 turnouts. Does this sound like a reasonable amount of wire for a layout measuring roughly 11'x12'? That will cost a good amount of money. The only way I can cut down wiring is to place the turnout control close to the turnout away from the control panel.


How did you come to that calculation? 825 / 17 = 48.5. You won't need 48.5' wire per turnout on an 11'x12' layout. If you run "Manhattan style" routing it will be a maximum of 11 + 12 = 23. With diagonal routing less. If you, as you wrote, are using 2-conductor wire. If you are using single conductor wire the calculation is closer to reasonable, but still too high.

Regards
Per
Offline Mr. Ron  
#23 Posted : 19 March 2021 22:42:41(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 68
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
Originally Posted by: perz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
I did some calculations and find that I need around 825' of 2 conductor wire to wire up 17 turnouts. Does this sound like a reasonable amount of wire for a layout measuring roughly 11'x12'? That will cost a good amount of money. The only way I can cut down wiring is to place the turnout control close to the turnout away from the control panel.


How did you come to that calculation? 825 / 17 = 48.5. You won't need 48.5' wire per turnout on an 11'x12' layout. If you run "Manhattan style" routing it will be a maximum of 11 + 12 = 23. With diagonal routing less. If you, as you wrote, are using 2-conductor wire. If you are using single conductor wire the calculation is closer to reasonable, but still too high.

Regards
Per

My layout is an around the room with a peninsular jutting into the middle of the room. Wires from the 17 turnouts have to follow the benchwork around the room to a control position. This places all the 7072 control boxes at the same place with the transformer. I will go back and review my wiring schematic.

Offline perz  
#24 Posted : 19 March 2021 23:26:04(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,568
Location: Sweden
Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: perz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
I did some calculations and find that I need around 825' of 2 conductor wire to wire up 17 turnouts. Does this sound like a reasonable amount of wire for a layout measuring roughly 11'x12'? That will cost a good amount of money. The only way I can cut down wiring is to place the turnout control close to the turnout away from the control panel.


How did you come to that calculation? 825 / 17 = 48.5. You won't need 48.5' wire per turnout on an 11'x12' layout. If you run "Manhattan style" routing it will be a maximum of 11 + 12 = 23. With diagonal routing less. If you, as you wrote, are using 2-conductor wire. If you are using single conductor wire the calculation is closer to reasonable, but still too high.

Regards
Per

My layout is an around the room with a peninsular jutting into the middle of the room. Wires from the 17 turnouts have to follow the benchwork around the room to a control position. This places all the 7072 control boxes at the same place with the transformer. I will go back and review my wiring schematic.



OK, that explains it.

Per
Offline Mr. Ron  
#25 Posted : 20 March 2021 00:35:14(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 68
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
Originally Posted by: perz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: perz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
I did some calculations and find that I need around 825' of 2 conductor wire to wire up 17 turnouts. Does this sound like a reasonable amount of wire for a layout measuring roughly 11'x12'? That will cost a good amount of money. The only way I can cut down wiring is to place the turnout control close to the turnout away from the control panel.


How did you come to that calculation? 825 / 17 = 48.5. You won't need 48.5' wire per turnout on an 11'x12' layout. If you run "Manhattan style" routing it will be a maximum of 11 + 12 = 23. With diagonal routing less. If you, as you wrote, are using 2-conductor wire. If you are using single conductor wire the calculation is closer to reasonable, but still too high.

Regards
Per

My layout is an around the room with a peninsular jutting into the middle of the room. Wires from the 17 turnouts have to follow the benchwork around the room to a control position. This places all the 7072 control boxes at the same place with the transformer. I will go back and review my wiring schematic.



OK, that explains it.

Per

I checked again, more closely and came up with a total of 534' of single conductor or 267' red and 267' green. I already ordered 500' each of #22 red and green stranded wire. That should be enough. BTW, the yellow wire from each turnout will tie into a common buss wire, co I don't need long runs.
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