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Offline arnold894  
#1 Posted : 24 February 2021 06:22:21(UTC)
arnold894


Joined: 20/07/2015(UTC)
Posts: 18
Location: California, Visalia
Hi Everyone,
I hope someone knows something about this. I have a fully automated line using contact track sets and semaphore signals all from Marklin using the CS3+ and events. The setup is pretty neat:
Two stations (one at each end with loops to turn around
Station A: 3 tracks with a 3-way c-track switch
Station B: 2 tracks with one of the basic c-track switches
One track between them and a passing track around the midpoint.
The idea is that 5 trains trade off between the two stations. Each station sends out one train and whichever one gets to the passing section first waits for the other one. Once the second one arrives they are both released to continue onto their destinations. When they arrive they park and the next train leaves. I have it programmed using events on my CS3+.
Here are the two problems (and how one has been resolved in a not so good way)

1: I first noticed that at Station A with 3 track the 3-way switch would fail to switch from right back to left like I wanted it to . Sometimes it would switch half way to straight and sometimes it would not switch at all. This caused train accidents. I tried using an old K83 instead of the modern 3-way decoder in the switch and that improved it greatly but it still had to be watched because it would sometimes fail. Next I redid the events to only have two trains at Station A (center track and left track from the 3-way). This solution while removing a lot of the fun of the line worked about 90% of the time until problem 2 arose.

2: I let the line sit for over a month while I was working on a new line and when I came back to it something new was wrong. Before I go further I will mention that I removed all connection/booster/etc to the additional new line completely and this new problem still persists. Everything will be working fine for maybe 5-10 minutes and then a semaphore (changes which one) will only raise half way. From that point on the switches cease to work and other semaphores are hit and miss. I am at a complete loss. I noticed one semaphore was having it happen more than others and it seemed it was having a harder time raising up so I unplugged it but that did not change the problem. In fact tonight when that happened I had the regular switch at Station B (also controlled by an old K83) stick on trying to switch for several seconds until I could hit the STOP button.

Have any of you had similar problems? Anything I should try? I am sorry for the long post but I really wanted to explain the problem as fully as I could.
Online rbw993  
#2 Posted : 24 February 2021 15:43:28(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 793
Does the CS3 show that the switch did not throw or semaphore not change position?
Offline arnold894  
#3 Posted : 24 February 2021 19:53:16(UTC)
arnold894


Joined: 20/07/2015(UTC)
Posts: 18
Location: California, Visalia
Originally Posted by: rbw993 Go to Quoted Post
Does the CS3 show that the switch did not throw or semaphore not change position?


Usually yes but sometimes it doesn't change either and quite often I loose control and can no longer manually change a switch, I loose the ability to click on it until I do a STOP and start.
Online rbw993  
#4 Posted : 24 February 2021 19:58:46(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 793
My thought is that the commends might be executing too quickly where the next one starts before the previous one finished. Is it possible to add a slight delay between commands? My events are just setting the turnouts on routes and I haven't had any issues but I have noticed the routes set more quickly with the CS3 versus when they were run by a CS2.

Roger
Online kiwiAlan  
#5 Posted : 24 February 2021 21:08:26(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,840
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: arnold894 Go to Quoted Post
Before I go further I will mention that I removed all connection/booster/etc to the additional new line completely and this new problem still persists.


What does the cs3 show as current draw on the system menu?

Your fault sounds to me like the cs3 is operating near the limit of its output capability causing the output stage to get warm and go into current limiting.

Also what power supply do you have, and what power supply is the cs3 configured to use?
Offline petestra  
#6 Posted : 24 February 2021 23:34:10(UTC)
petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,714
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
Hi. I have the CS3 with 8 events (signal/points) programmed so far on my layout. I have noticed that after I make a change to an event

then I have to restart the CS3 or it won't work right. Hope this may help? Peter.
Offline arnold894  
#7 Posted : 25 February 2021 05:47:11(UTC)
arnold894


Joined: 20/07/2015(UTC)
Posts: 18
Location: California, Visalia
Originally Posted by: rbw993 Go to Quoted Post
My thought is that the commends might be executing too quickly where the next one starts before the previous one finished. Is it possible to add a slight delay between commands? My events are just setting the turnouts on routes and I haven't had any issues but I have noticed the routes set more quickly with the CS3 versus when they were run by a CS2.

Roger


Interesting thought. My events are all in response to sensors being activated. Do you think if two happen at the same time (or the second happens while the first one has its tasks being done) it could cause the problem? I tried adding a delay for the 1st problem I described with the switch going to straight, then delay and then going to right. It didn't work though.
Offline arnold894  
#8 Posted : 25 February 2021 06:14:50(UTC)
arnold894


Joined: 20/07/2015(UTC)
Posts: 18
Location: California, Visalia
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: arnold894 Go to Quoted Post
Before I go further I will mention that I removed all connection/booster/etc to the additional new line completely and this new problem still persists.


What does the cs3 show as current draw on the system menu?

Your fault sounds to me like the cs3 is operating near the limit of its output capability causing the output stage to get warm and go into current limiting.

Also what power supply do you have, and what power supply is the cs3 configured to use?


Lots of great questions. Let me do my best to answer them. I just ran the four trains and they ran for about 15 minutes with no problem. It started out saying my main track was around .4A and showed green. Even though I am trading off between trains with two running at once it gradually rose to be around .7 or .8. A couple of times there were a few seconds where 3 of them would be on for a second where one was coming in while another left. When that happened it took it to .9A. One time all 4 were on for less than 5 seconds when both stations were switching trains at the same time. That was the highest it got which was 1. About a minute or two after that the two semaphores that are for the passing track both were told to go up and one of them went halfway up and released its engine and the other released its engine without going up at all. As far as the transformers go The transformer is a 60065 switch pack power module. I have a new booster (the 175 black one with another 60065 on a second separate line. Even when I unplug that line there is no change in what is happening. Does any of this info give you any clues?
Offline arnold894  
#9 Posted : 25 February 2021 06:16:25(UTC)
arnold894


Joined: 20/07/2015(UTC)
Posts: 18
Location: California, Visalia
Originally Posted by: arnold894 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: arnold894 Go to Quoted Post
Before I go further I will mention that I removed all connection/booster/etc to the additional new line completely and this new problem still persists.


What does the cs3 show as current draw on the system menu?

Your fault sounds to me like the cs3 is operating near the limit of its output capability causing the output stage to get warm and go into current limiting.

Also what power supply do you have, and what power supply is the cs3 configured to use?


Lots of great questions. Let me do my best to answer them. I just ran the four trains and they ran for about 15 minutes with no problem. It started out saying my main track was around .4A and showed green. Even though I am trading off between trains with two running at once it gradually rose to be around .7 or .8. A couple of times there were a few seconds where 3 of them would be on for a second where one was coming in while another left. When that happened it took it to .9A. One time all 4 were on for less than 5 seconds when both stations were switching trains at the same time. That was the highest it got which was 1. About a minute or two after that the two semaphores that are for the passing track both were told to go up and one of them went halfway up and released its engine and the other released its engine without going up at all. As far as the transformers go The transformer is a 60065 switch pack power module. I have a new booster (the 175 black one with another 60065 on a second separate line. Even when I unplug that line there is no change in what is happening. Does any of this info give you any clues?


Forgot to ask, how do I check what transformer the cs3 is set for?
Offline Goofy  
#10 Posted : 25 February 2021 07:02:22(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,399
When i did start use CS3 first time and 60 VA i did first adjust choice power supply by set 60 VA 60061 in the system settings.
Normally does CS3 set m83 as standard when you start register turnout decoder m83 first time.
Märklin magnet turnout motor needs only about 200 ms in draw pull power while older turnout needs more power.
Viessmanns semaphore draw more power than magnet turnout motor.
H0
Two rail= Pure realism
Offline arnold894  
#11 Posted : 25 February 2021 09:06:34(UTC)
arnold894


Joined: 20/07/2015(UTC)
Posts: 18
Location: California, Visalia
Originally Posted by: petestra Go to Quoted Post
Hi. I have the CS3 with 8 events (signal/points) programmed so far on my layout. I have noticed that after I make a change to an event

then I have to restart the CS3 or it won't work right. Hope this may help? Peter.


I have not made any recent event changes. Thank you though Peter!
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by arnold894
Offline Purellum  
#12 Posted : 25 February 2021 12:43:37(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,303
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Viessmanns semaphore draw more power than magnet turnout motor.


Viessmann semaphore acording to Viessmann: <100 mA: https://viessmann-modell...65/47000Ymi2H7ctNamF.pdf

Märklin magnet turnout "motor" according to Märklin: 250 - 500 mA ( 5 - 10 VA ): https://www.maerklin.de/...faq/technik-tipp-404.pdf

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
Online rbw993  
#13 Posted : 25 February 2021 17:04:32(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 793
Email to theses guys. marklindudes@gmail.com. They are Marklin digital reps for the US.

Roger
Offline Goofy  
#14 Posted : 25 February 2021 20:39:44(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,399
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post


Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Viessmanns semaphore draw more power than magnet turnout motor.


Viessmann semaphore acording to Viessmann: <100 mA: https://viessmann-modell...65/47000Ymi2H7ctNamF.pdf

Per.



You referred to digital semaphore.
I mean analog semaphore.

H0
Two rail= Pure realism
Offline Purellum  
#15 Posted : 25 February 2021 21:45:19(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,303
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
You referred to digital semaphore.
I mean analog semaphore.


I just assumed that a semaphore controlled by a CS3 was digital, how stupid of me BigGrin Laugh LOL

And by the way, upon reading the first post again, the semaphore are Märklin, not Viessmann Cool

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
Offline arnold894  
#16 Posted : 26 February 2021 00:31:13(UTC)
arnold894


Joined: 20/07/2015(UTC)
Posts: 18
Location: California, Visalia
Originally Posted by: rbw993 Go to Quoted Post
Email to theses guys. marklindudes@gmail.com. They are Marklin digital reps for the US.

Roger


Already have. They want me to cut the line in half and break it down in smaller pieces than that. However, it would be very hard to test the line with he automation when it is cut in half. The problem is very unlikely to occur without CS3 events. I did unplug a particular semaphore that was the usual one that would start the problem but the problem just moved to another semaphore instead. I guess I could do that with the other 6 semaphores and see if any of them being offline stop the issue.
Offline Goofy  
#17 Posted : 26 February 2021 10:33:13(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,399
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post


Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
You referred to digital semaphore.
I mean analog semaphore.


I just assumed that a semaphore controlled by a CS3 was digital, how stupid of me

And by the way, upon reading the first post again, the semaphore are Märklin, not Viessmann

Per.



Yes?
And so what?
I did just wrote a type example if you use Viessmanns semaphore too.
The problem for the TS are possible wrong set in the CS3.
A good example is to deleted all turnout decoder and digital signals.
Start over again by set decoder into CS3.

H0
Two rail= Pure realism
Online kiwiAlan  
#18 Posted : 26 February 2021 13:31:07(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,840
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post

I did just wrote a type example if you use Viessmanns semaphore too.


But why introduce a diversion when he had already stated the signals were Marklin? doing so just produces unneeded noise in the topic. Confused Confused Confused Confused
Offline Goofy  
#19 Posted : 28 February 2021 11:34:05(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,399
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post

I did just wrote a type example if you use Viessmanns semaphore too.


But why introduce a diversion when he had already stated the signals were Marklin? doing so just produces unneeded noise in the topic. Confused Confused Confused Confused


Very simple!
A analog Viessmann semaphore draw about 0,7 Amp!
There is difference but the real problem are set decoder m83 in every output and so does for the digital signals too.
Märklins CS3 are complicated to set digital signals and decoders like m83 and m84.
You must keep in the mind to avoid problem with the CS3 when you set system.
I too do have sometimes problem if i want to use other competitors accessories to connect with the m83.
Märklin recommend you to use mfx register digital signals as standard set in the CS3.


H0
Two rail= Pure realism
Offline Purellum  
#20 Posted : 28 February 2021 11:42:11(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,303
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Very simple!
A analog Viessmann semaphore draw about 0,7 Amp!


Maybe you could create your own topic about analog Viessmann semaphores, and let this topic be about digital Märklin semaphores?

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
Offline Goofy  
#21 Posted : 28 February 2021 11:50:31(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,399
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post


Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Very simple!
A analog Viessmann semaphore draw about 0,7 Amp!


Maybe you could create your own topic about analog Viessmann semaphores, and let this topic be about digital Märklin semaphores?

Per.



It is a rich lesson to know about what needs to be learned about.
TS did possible set CS3 wrong and to fix it you deleted and start over again.
This time to set as standard in the system.
Viessmann or Märklin digital signals or analog...it does matter.

H0
Two rail= Pure realism
Offline arnold894  
#22 Posted : 10 March 2021 05:59:38(UTC)
arnold894


Joined: 20/07/2015(UTC)
Posts: 18
Location: California, Visalia
Update: Something new to consider. I have two lines connected to my CS3+ now (the automated one and a non-automated one). I decided to just run one train on each while working in my train room. I unplugged my S88Link and got one train running on each. When I went to change trains on each line after 45mins to an hour the second line that has been fine was still in full control. However, the line I have been having trouble with had major issues. The CS3+ had lost control of the engine, changing speed didn't register. Once I stopped and started it again I got back control of the engine but then realized out of 7 semaphores on that line I could only control 1 of them and a second one would just click but not move. Again the other line had its semaphores working fine all on the same CS3+. I had to restart the CS3+ to make those semaphores work again. Does this give anyone any hints on what is messing up my automated line?
Thanks!
Offline phils2um  
#23 Posted : 10 March 2021 08:43:51(UTC)
phils2um

United States   
Joined: 12/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 68
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Have you checked the booster(s) for line giving you trouble? The problem may not be related to the data bus at all. I've had issues with boosters where something goes wonky and the booster will overheat. At a certain point loco control is lost - they keep running at the last digital setting and I wont be able to operate turnouts. Next time you have the problem check the booster temperature on SYSTEM>BOOSTER for abnormally high readings before you reset anything. My problem seems to be triggered by too many inductive loads on the rails such as smoke units and incandescent bulbs. My boosters usually run around 35-45ºC. When trouble starts I have seen the temp climb as high a 75ºC before I hit the stop which will at least briefly clear whatever was going on.
Phil S.
Online kiwiAlan  
#24 Posted : 10 March 2021 15:34:35(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,840
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: phils2um Go to Quoted Post
My problem seems to be triggered by too many inductive loads on the rails such as smoke units and incandescent bulbs. My boosters usually run around 35-45ºC. When trouble starts I have seen the temp climb as high a 75ºC before I hit the stop which will at least briefly clear whatever was going on.


Smoke units and light bulbs shouldn't be inductive loads, they should be close to purely resistive loads. Any inductance they have will be very small and not a problem in the grand scheme of things.

It sounds to me like the issue you are seeing is just high current consumption, possibly you need to break your layout up into more blocks and use more boosters, especially if you have a lot of sound locos with sound running, or lights and smoke units. Passenger trains with lots of coaches lit will consume a reasonable amount of power if using older light bulbs rather than LED lighting.
Offline arnold894  
#25 Posted : 15 March 2021 03:56:04(UTC)
arnold894


Joined: 20/07/2015(UTC)
Posts: 18
Location: California, Visalia
OK, So I have been thinking about what everyone has been saying and so I tried something new. I disconnected my other line completely. I also disconnected by bus box that is used for boosters and my L88. I plugged my L88 directly into the CS3+. No boosters were on the line (it isn't a very big line). Most of the time just two trains are running with a third running for maybe 3 seconds as they trade off. It doesn't seem to me that there is much power consumption there. Do you disagree? The same thing happened about 5 minutes into running. For a minute I thought the problem had actually been solved but nope:{. Any ideas?
Offline marklinist5999  
#26 Posted : 15 March 2021 07:54:07(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 274
Location: Michigan, Troy
I would be at odds if I were having such an operating issue as well. It's aggravating. As with most things, my dear dad always said to check the most obvious common trouble cause first. He was an appliance technician, and good with electrical things, etc. With a car that won't crank, the battery, then connections. Then the starter.
So, if you have checked and eliminated that that 3 Y turnout is functioning correctly etc. Then it must be a decoder fault. Not necessarily a faulty one, but possibly it is receiving a crossed or mixed data signal. Or, it may have one faulty output.
Before suspecting a CS3 fault, we know that when computers make an error, it is usually a programming issue. Retrace and redo the event.
If it is still not solved, then?????????? Is it possible one of the components is being confused by the others?
Things man made often make errors like humans do. I have a C turnout which sticks a bit. I brush dusted it, and used silicone spray. It helped some. I have a loco which I pinched a wire between the body and frame. Now it has one low beam headlight out. I cut the wire at the crimp and reconnected it with shrink sleeve. It didn't fix it, so it is the decoder. I won't replace it as it is a minor thing. It runs fine, and long distant lights work. The turtle function is inactive as well. I have plenty of locomotives, and don't run more than two at a time.
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