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Offline HughC  
#1 Posted : 18 November 2020 23:23:20(UTC)
HughC

Canada   
Joined: 25/03/2013(UTC)
Posts: 11
Hi All from S. Ontario, Canada,

I have read the forum with much interest for many years but have rarely posted. I'm stuck and hope that some of the experts out there can help.

I have a Marklin 39563 crocodile (CE 6/8 14307) purchased around 2012. It had an SDS motor. (I love these motors btw - and wish that M still used them.) Unfortunately, the motor seized and is ruined (that story for another time perhaps). Since Marklin does not carry spare parts for these, I found a replacement from SB modellbau. I have done the conversion with their bell armature motor but they say that if one uses the original Marklin decoder you must edit CV 52 for it to work. That CV is currently set to 1 (for SDS); it should be set to 4 (for the new motor).

OK: so far, so simple.

The problem is that when I try to edit the CV using a CS3 it shows that CV 52 is just coded as 1 and is not modifiable. The decoder is mfx (but not DCC).

So, how do I change it? (Is it even possible to modify that value or is it essentially hardwired? How could one tell?) I have thought of a few things:

- use the mdecodertool but that seems to work only for the newest decoders. It will let me test the decoder (lights and whistle work fine) but won't actually read the decoder as the CS3 will.

- add a new loco under MM which may give more control over what can be edited than the "know-it-all" mfx approach. The loco responds to MM commands to address 68 but when you try to edit the loco you don't get anything. I guess being MM it can't read the decoder info???

In either case, it would be best to be able to read out the current config of the decoder, work on that (i.e., change that one value and any other relevant motor parameters) and then read it back in. All of these other methods seem to require one to enter every last parameter anew and I worry that I will completely screw up the decoder. If I look up the loco in the database it (un!)helpfully tells me that this is an mfx loco and doesn't do anything useful.

Has anyone encountered a problem like this and/or have any suggestions as to how to proceed - or am I out of luck?

Thanks in advance,
Hugh
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 19 November 2020 09:10:47(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,843
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: HughC Go to Quoted Post
So, how do I change it? (Is it even possible to modify that value or is it essentially hardwired? How could one tell?)
Factory-installed decoders can have all sorts of locks. IIRC I have seen Märklin decoders where you can change the motor type to any value you want (using a CS2), but it doesn't have any effect. Maybe different decoders do not allow changing the value.

Don't forget to write changes to the decoder after making a change.

I think using a different tool won't make a difference. Probably time to get a replacement decoder.
You can get an ESU decoder to show how pleased you are about Märklin locking there bally decoders. Probably that's what I would do.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline HughC  
#3 Posted : 19 November 2020 17:02:26(UTC)
HughC

Canada   
Joined: 25/03/2013(UTC)
Posts: 11
Many thanks, Tom,

Not what I wanted to hear but is what I was coming to suspect!

On the "glass half full" side, I guess with a new decoder I can add full sound (it originally only had a whistle).

Thanks again,
Hugh
Offline franciscohg  
#4 Posted : 19 November 2020 18:16:22(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,225
Location: Patagonia
Hello
Tom is right.
just a question arises, you are using the original board? How do you connect the motor? Or sb-modellbau also provides a suitable board?
Regards
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline applor  
#5 Posted : 19 November 2020 23:40:28(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,567
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Interesting.

I have some Marklin MFX decoders which I have retrofitted into a different locomotive. These Marklin decoders are actually ESU lokpilot 3 M4 decoders and completely unlocked - I could change everything when I used lokprogrammer.

I would have thought yours would be the same from that sort of time period. You're touching the edit (spanner) icon in the loco properties? Maybe decoders used for SDS locos are locked to avoid people ruining them.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
Offline HughC  
#6 Posted : 20 November 2020 15:50:17(UTC)
HughC

Canada   
Joined: 25/03/2013(UTC)
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post
Hello
Tom is right.
just a question arises, you are using the original board? How do you connect the motor? Or sb-modellbau also provides a suitable board?
Regards


Yes, using the original board. In their instructions they show photos of the lok's innards that look identical to mine. They solder motor leads to the feet of pins 18 & 19 and then make the comment that if you use the original Marklin decoder you will have to reprogram it.
Offline HughC  
#7 Posted : 20 November 2020 16:00:58(UTC)
HughC

Canada   
Joined: 25/03/2013(UTC)
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Interesting.

I have some Marklin MFX decoders which I have retrofitted into a different locomotive. These Marklin decoders are actually ESU lokpilot 3 M4 decoders and completely unlocked - I could change everything when I used lokprogrammer.

I would have thought yours would be the same from that sort of time period. You're touching the edit (spanner) icon in the loco properties? Maybe decoders used for SDS locos are locked to avoid people ruining them.


Maybe I should try to get a hold of a lokprogrammer to see if my decoder can be suitably reprogrammed. I have been trying to do this using a cs3 (my old cs2 only seems able to work as a slave/booster not standalone) and I admit that it is not obvious how to write changes to the decoder. However, it is still the case that it doesn't even let me edit the field! (I can edit several other fields.)
Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 20 November 2020 16:09:23(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,843
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: HughC Go to Quoted Post
Maybe I should try to get a hold of a lokprogrammer to see if my decoder can be suitably reprogrammed.
Maybe not.
Only Märklin mfx decoders have the motor type CV 52.

The CS2 can show the manufacturer ID of the decoder (151 for ESU, 131 for Trix) beside the manufacturer ID of the loco (always 131 for Trix in Märklin locos).

Only the first batch of ESU mfx decoders in Märklin locos back in 2005 was not locked. Later ESU mfx decoders in Märklin locos were locked against updates.
If the decoder is from Märklin (ID 131) then the ESU Lok Programmer will not be able to make any changes.

ESU decoders have a blue board, Märklin decoders are green, red, or white. So first check colour or ID to find the maker of the decoder, then decide the next step.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline ocram63_uk  
#9 Posted : 20 November 2020 20:09:01(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 376
Location: England, Suffolk
I think that SB-Modelbau strips out all the Marklin muck and gives you a proper motor that doesn’t need a PCB to work :-)
Offline eduard71  
#10 Posted : 21 November 2020 04:25:37(UTC)
eduard71

Chile   
Joined: 27/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 244
Location: Santiago
Dear Hugh
Marklin locomotives with a Sinus motor use a special board to drive the motor. For that reason CV 52 is 0. I am not sure if the board will work with any other kind of motor.
Instead the decoder should work with a standard 21 pin board and your new motor.
It is not recommended to change the configuration of the decoder using the board of the sds locomotive. Some years ago I upgraded my Gottardo train set to full sound. Following the recommendation in the stummi forum the programming of the decoder was made in a ESU programming board instead of the locomotive. The electronics of the sds board tend to interface the programming process of the decoder. Actually this happen when I want to change cv setting in the train set, the decoder does not get fully mapped by my cs3 and to do this I need to take out the decoder and program it in a non sinus locomotive.
Hope this tip helps you.
Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 21 November 2020 15:43:36(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,843
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post
I think that SB-Modelbau strips out all the Marklin muck and gives you a proper motor that doesn’t need a PCB to work :-)
The decoder has a PCB with a socket (21MTC) and requires a PCB with a plug inside the loco. The motor driver PCB for the C Sine motor is no longer needed.

Originally Posted by: eduard71 Go to Quoted Post
The electronics of the sds board tend to interface the programming process of the decoder.
The motor driver board interferes with DCC programming, but not with mfx programming. It will be removed or bypassed for coreless motors anyway.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline HughC  
#12 Posted : 26 November 2020 00:27:09(UTC)
HughC

Canada   
Joined: 25/03/2013(UTC)
Posts: 11
Hi All,

I had a chance to spend a few minutes on this again just now...

The decoder is green and appears to be a 131. So, it looks as though it is likely locked and I am out of luck.

I looked at the output of the decoder (pins 18 & 19) which is what SB-modellbau says one should connect their motor to. It is producing a PWM signal of around 30kHz, 18V pp and duty cycle that starts at about 15% (speed step 1) and goes up to close to 100% (at least as currently configured). Reversing changes the polarity of the two leads. This all seems consistent with what one reads in the Marklin decoder info for motor type 1 (SDS).

As an aside: it may well be that if sb-modellbau does the complete conversion that they take out all the original electronics but this is certainly not something even hinted at in their instructions for do-it-yourself-ers.

The driver board takes this PWM signal and produces the necessary 3-phase signal of the correct frequency to drive the SDS motor at a given speed. I was hoping that by changing the motor type to 4 one could just ignore whatever the SDS board would do with the (now non-PWM) output as *its* output was no longer connected to anything, but if one can't change the PWM to something else this is all moot. One could imagine filtering the PWM but this would likely prevent the decoder from seeing any useful back-emf.

So, the question seems to be can one just stick on a (new) decoder set to drive this type of coreless motor and have it work?

I find intriguing the idea that programming is disabled in particular locos - is this documented somewhere? (I can use google translate quite effectively on stummiforum but need to know where to look first.

Thanks again for all the feedback, help and ideas!

Hugh
Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 26 November 2020 08:28:36(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,843
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: HughC Go to Quoted Post
The driver board takes this PWM signal and produces the necessary 3-phase signal of the correct frequency to drive the SDS motor at a given speed. I was hoping that by changing the motor type to 4 one could just ignore whatever the SDS board would do with the (now non-PWM) output as *its* output was no longer connected to anything, but if one can't change the PWM to something else this is all moot. One could imagine filtering the PWM but this would likely prevent the decoder from seeing any useful back-emf.
With motor type SDS you get PWM, but the decoder does not check back-EMF.
With the other motor types you still get PWM, but back-EMF (and thus the load regulation) are enabled. The PWM frequency could be different.

The motor should work with PWM without load regulation. You just do not get the best possible result.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline bph  
#14 Posted : 26 November 2020 15:34:42(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 222
Originally Posted by: HughC Go to Quoted Post

The driver board takes this PWM signal and produces the necessary 3-phase signal of the correct frequency to drive the SDS motor at a given speed. I was hoping that by changing the motor type to 4 one could just ignore whatever the SDS board would do with the (now non-PWM) output as *its* output was no longer connected to anything, but if one can't change the PWM to something else this is all moot. One could imagine filtering the PWM but this would likely prevent the decoder from seeing any useful back-emf.


Its strongly recommended removing the driver board, when you remove the SDS motor.

Originally Posted by: HughC Go to Quoted Post

So, the question seems to be can one just stick on a (new) decoder set to drive this type of coreless motor and have it work?


In short yes, as long as you remove the old driver board. (Marklin has several older models with Maxon and Faulhaber motors, they work fine with the latest msd3/mld3 without a driver board)

Originally Posted by: HughC Go to Quoted Post

I find intriguing the idea that programming is disabled in particular locos - is this documented somewhere? (I can use google translate quite effectively on stummiforum but need to know where to look first.


yes, it can be frustrating sometimes, but as a side note, I have an SDS locomotive (39013) where it seems that I can change the motor type with my CS3,(can change it in mfx settings). It's probably an ESU decoder (factory fitted).





Offline HughC  
#15 Posted : 26 November 2020 17:16:29(UTC)
HughC

Canada   
Joined: 25/03/2013(UTC)
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HughC Go to Quoted Post
The motor should work with PWM without load regulation. You just do not get the best possible result.


Yes, this is what I thought/hoped. But sb-modellbau say unequivocally that "Wichtig: Sollte Original Mä-decoder beibehalten werden, so muß dieser unbedingt umprogrammiert werden, sonst fährt Lok nicht." And, indeed, the motor only makes a fraction of one full revolution in either direction if I try. (Spins freely by hand.)
Offline mvd71  
#16 Posted : 26 November 2020 21:17:12(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,285
Location: Auckland,
I dont want to point out the obvious, but have you contacted SB-modelbau and asked them for advice? They will probably be able to tell you immediately the best way to solve the problem
Offline HughC  
#17 Posted : 26 November 2020 22:41:47(UTC)
HughC

Canada   
Joined: 25/03/2013(UTC)
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by: mvd71 Go to Quoted Post
I dont want to point out the obvious, but have you contacted SB-modelbau and asked them for advice? They will probably be able to tell you immediately the best way to solve the problem


Oh yes, I'm not shy about asking for help. They suggested asking in the forums - they only use ESU...
Offline mvd71  
#18 Posted : 27 November 2020 08:28:58(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,285
Location: Auckland,
Ok, well I suspect you will be up for a replacement decoder. Many of the decoders that are factory fitted are locked and as a result limited in terms of changes that can be made.

But on the plus side, good choice of replacement motor 👍
Offline HughC  
#19 Posted : 27 November 2020 16:59:57(UTC)
HughC

Canada   
Joined: 25/03/2013(UTC)
Posts: 11
Yes, I think I will have to get a new decoder (and can probably get sound as a side benefit).

For interest, I dug up an interface board that I had lying around and used it to wire up the decoder naked (of the croc or its SDS driver board): just red, brown and the output wires to the motor. Unloaded, the output was pwm but with the motor attached the waveform became quite different: roughly equal positive and negative pulses. Not surprising that the (DC) motor just twitched a little but nothing else. Furthermore no sign of CV 52. I think that unless some deep magic comes to light showing how to change the firmware or some such, I have probably spent enough time on this.

Thanks to all who offered suggestions and help.

Hugh
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