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Offline Roland  
#1 Posted : 15 November 2020 16:02:06(UTC)
Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 243
Location: Toronto, Canada
I'm having some difficulty getting my CS3 to be able to control my 75491 turnout mechanism. I'm using a viessmann 5211 decoder and have the rt and br sockets (bottom) connected to the CS3 buses and E socket (top) connected to my accessory power supply (and tested all connections). I've tried various dip switches and the appropriate addresses according to the 5211 manual (with MM set as the device type). I've also tried connecting my 75491 to different ports on the 5211 (and the appropriate addresses), even another 5211 unit in case the first was faulty, but cannot get the turnout mechanism to respond.

I've tested the turnout mechanism directly with my accessory power supply and it switches just fine. Unless both 5211 are defective, I'm not sure what the problem is. Appreciate any advice on what I might be doing wrong or should test to further troubleshoot. Thanks in advance!

Roland
Offline fkowal  
#2 Posted : 15 November 2020 16:23:35(UTC)
fkowal

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Roland, have you connected the ground (brown) from the CS3 with the ground from your accessory power supply?
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Offline Roland  
#3 Posted : 15 November 2020 16:31:51(UTC)
Roland

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Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
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Location: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted by: fkowal Go to Quoted Post
Roland, have you connected the ground (brown) from the CS3 with the ground from your accessory power supply?


Hi Frank, no I have not explicitly. I used my multimeter to test and both brown/ground ports on the 5211 are connected together internally so they both ground to the CS3. Is grounding to the accessory PS necessary?

Thanks
Roland

edited: re-read your question and updated my response
Offline JohnjeanB  
#4 Posted : 15 November 2020 17:05:07(UTC)
JohnjeanB

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Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,197
Location: Paris, France
Hi Roland
Here are a few points to verify
- the Viessmann decoder must be connected using the bn (Brown) and rt (Red) to both poles of the CS3. Attention swapping the Red and Brown may cause malfunctions)
- the switches on the Viessmann decoder must be set according to what the Viessmann user's manual says AND NOT what the CS3 is showing (uniquely for Märklin decoders).
All your address settings must be made while power is OFF otherwise some destruction is possible
The 3 wires (2 x blue and 1 yellow) must be connected to one of the 4 ports: rt ; 1 gn ; rt ; 2 gn ; rt ; 3 gn ; rt ; 4 gn

Example
using address 1, the switches - 2 3 - 5 - 7 - must be ON and the others OFF
connecting the switch motor to port 1 (plugs rt ; 1 gn
operating the switch with address 1 should work. Does it or not?
Cheers
Jean
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latest vid
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Offline Roland  
#5 Posted : 15 November 2020 18:12:58(UTC)
Roland

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Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
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Location: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Roland
Here are a few points to verify
- the Viessmann decoder must be connected using the bn (Brown) and rt (Red) to both poles of the CS3. Attention swapping the Red and Brown may cause malfunctions)
- the switches on the Viessmann decoder must be set according to what the Viessmann user's manual says AND NOT what the CS3 is showing (uniquely for Märklin decoders).
All your address settings must be made while power is OFF otherwise some destruction is possible
The 3 wires (2 x blue and 1 yellow) must be connected to one of the 4 ports: rt ; 1 gn ; rt ; 2 gn ; rt ; 3 gn ; rt ; 4 gn

Example
using address 1, the switches - 2 3 - 5 - 7 - must be ON and the others OFF
connecting the switch motor to port 1 (plugs rt ; 1 gn
operating the switch with address 1 should work. Does it or not?
Cheers
Jean


Hi Jean, thanks for the reply.

I have both the bn and rt definitely connected to the correct buses from the CS3 (based on the following diagram from another thread). I double checked this so it should be correct. The only thing I have not done is connect the CS3 ground bus to my accessory PS ground bus since they should be connected within the 5211 (both bn sockets are internally connected together). If this is still necessary please let me know.
UserPostedImage

I've used the decoder switch chart from Viessmann's own manual.
I've been very careful to make the changes while the power is off so hopefully this is not the issue. It shouldn't be because I also tested a second 5211 which was definitely connected while power was off and still no luck.

I did initially try -23-5-7- followed by several other higher address ranges to avoid conflict with my lokos.

Are there any other configurations on the CS3 that must be made aside from setting the address of the turnout? From all the manuals I've read and videos I've watched, it doesn't seem like it.

Thanks,
Roland
Offline French_Fabrice  
#6 Posted : 15 November 2020 18:28:14(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,309
Location: Lyon, France
Hi Roland,

If you don't connect together "O track" and "O accessory", then it will never run !!!

A power source is able to deliver current between its 2 poles, "L" and "O Accessory". But your "O Accessory" is not connected to "O track", thus when providing "L" to "E" socket, the electric potential difference between "E" and "O track" (i.e. bn socket) hasn't the required value. This is why it doesn't run.

-> Connect "O track" to "O accessory" and it will be fine. This is exactly what is shown in my diagram.

Cheers
Fabrice
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#7 Posted : 15 November 2020 21:13:36(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,197
Location: Paris, France
Hi
Originally Posted by: Roland Go to Quoted Post
did initially try -23-5-7- followed by several other higher address ranges to avoid conflict with my lokos

There is no conflict with locos since you are using Motorola (5211's only protocol). You may have a loco address 1 and a switch address 1. You may even have another DCC switch using address 1.
You have connected both 0 (Brown) which is good and a must.
Is your CS3 adrdessing your Viessman unit in Motorola? If not it will not work(The Viesmann 5211 does not understand DCC)
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
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Offline Roland  
#8 Posted : 15 November 2020 21:21:21(UTC)
Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 243
Location: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi
Originally Posted by: Roland Go to Quoted Post
did initially try -23-5-7- followed by several other higher address ranges to avoid conflict with my lokos

There is no conflict with locos since you are using Motorola (5211's only protocol). You may have a loco address 1 and a switch address 1. You may even have another DCC switch using address 1.
You have connected both 0 (Brown) which is good and a must.
Is your CS3 adrdessing your Viessman unit in Motorola? If not it will not work(The Viesmann 5211 does not understand DCC)
Cheers
Jean


Hi Jean, interesting. I thought older 6090x decoders using the MM protocol as well? And yes I selected MM for the decoder type in my turnout properties.


Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hi Roland,

If you don't connect together "O track" and "O accessory", then it will never run !!!

A power source is able to deliver current between its 2 poles, "L" and "O Accessory". But your "O Accessory" is not connected to "O track", thus when providing "L" to "E" socket, the electric potential difference between "E" and "O track" (i.e. bn socket) hasn't the required value. This is why it doesn't run.

-> Connect "O track" to "O accessory" and it will be fine. This is exactly what is shown in my diagram.

Cheers
Fabrice


Hi Fabrice,

My mistake. From a previous conversation I misunderstood that as long as all components were grounded to SOMETHING (e.g. the CS3), it should work fine. My high school electronics teacher would be very disappointed with me Blushing

I have now connected my CS3 ground bus to the ground on the accessory PS, set my decoder address back to 1-4 (-23-5-7-) on the 5211 and address 1 for the turnout on the CS3, powered everything on still no luck. I will investigate further when I have more time this evening.

Thanks!
Roland
Offline French_Fabrice  
#9 Posted : 15 November 2020 21:35:13(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,309
Location: Lyon, France
Hi Roland,

In order to discard possible failure of 5211, do the following:

-unplug "O accessory" to "O track"
-connect "E" to "rt" socket (DO NOT connect accessory power to "E")
-connect O track and B track to respectively "bn" and "rt" socket of 5211. As a result, your 5211 is only powered by digital current.
-set your 5211 to range 1-4 (-23-5-7-)
-test your turnout on MM address 1; if it doesn't run, test also the turnout on address 2 or 3 or 4 (one output transistor may have failed)

Cheers
Fabrice
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Offline Roland  
#10 Posted : 16 November 2020 04:54:03(UTC)
Roland

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Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 243
Location: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hi Roland,

In order to discard possible failure of 5211, do the following:

-unplug "O accessory" to "O track"
-connect "E" to "rt" socket (DO NOT connect accessory power to "E")
-connect O track and B track to respectively "bn" and "rt" socket of 5211. As a result, your 5211 is only powered by digital current.
-set your 5211 to range 1-4 (-23-5-7-)
-test your turnout on MM address 1; if it doesn't run, test also the turnout on address 2 or 3 or 4 (one output transistor may have failed)

Cheers
Fabrice


The turnout mechanism switches perfectly while connected to digital track power. If I switch back to my accessory power supply (and re-connect the CS3 ground bus to the accessory PS ground, no luck. If I test the solenoid directly against the acecssory PS it switches just fine so I would think the PS is working ok...

My accessory PS outputs 13.8V DC and 5A constant and I'm using 14awg wire for my bus which runs roughly 6-7 meters from to the 5211 decoder.

Appreciate any other ideas you might have Confused

Thanks,
Roland


Offline Roland  
#11 Posted : 16 November 2020 15:11:52(UTC)
Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 243
Location: Toronto, Canada
Tried one additional test connecting the E wire to the yellow solenoid wire and then touched the blue wire to bn and the solenoid switches fine. So wiring appears to be fine. I can't understand why a 5211 would only switch the turnout mechanism when supplied with digital current Confused
Offline JohnjeanB  
#12 Posted : 16 November 2020 17:28:58(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,197
Location: Paris, France
Hi Roland
Originally Posted by: Roland Go to Quoted Post
Tried one additional test connecting the E wire to the yellow solenoid wire and then touched the blue wire to bn and the solenoid switches fine. So wiring appears to be fine. I can't understand why a 5211 would only switch the turnout mechanism when supplied with digital current Confused

The only answer -if you are sure about the wiring- is that one internal component to the 5211 has been destroyed.
Frankly, the interest of using an alternate power source (non-digital) is low if you have 3 A or 5 A of digital power on the layout.
The reason is: only one solenoid is activated at any one time and during a short period of time (100 mS to 200 mS) over a longer period of time 300 mS per cycle. This is the way digital works.
In my layout, all track pieces (Switches, Double switches, Triples, etc) - 70 of them - are powered from digital current without any problem.
Cheers
Jean

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Offline Roland  
#13 Posted : 16 November 2020 18:14:01(UTC)
Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 243
Location: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Roland
Originally Posted by: Roland Go to Quoted Post
Tried one additional test connecting the E wire to the yellow solenoid wire and then touched the blue wire to bn and the solenoid switches fine. So wiring appears to be fine. I can't understand why a 5211 would only switch the turnout mechanism when supplied with digital current Confused

The only answer -if you are sure about the wiring- is that one internal component to the 5211 has been destroyed.
Frankly, the interest of using an alternate power source (non-digital) is low if you have 3 A or 5 A of digital power on the layout.
The reason is: only one solenoid is activated at any one time and during a short period of time (100 mS to 200 mS) over a longer period of time 300 mS per cycle. This is the way digital works.
In my layout, all track pieces (Switches, Double switches, Triples, etc) - 70 of them - are powered from digital current without any problem.
Cheers
Jean



Hi Jean,

I agree with you when it comes to solenoids. I plan to also use the accessory bus for lighting, signals and uncouplers as well eventually. I'm running separate buses and also isolating different sections of the layout so that in future I can decide how I supply power. I'll use digital for the solenoids for now until I figure this out.

Thanks to all for the advice.

Roland
Offline French_Fabrice  
#14 Posted : 16 November 2020 19:23:56(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,309
Location: Lyon, France
Hi Roland,

That's really odd ???

Just try to mail Viessmann for support. In the doc there is no minimum voltage for this "E" socket, only 16V AC or DC.
Could that be the voltage at "E" is not enough ?

Out of curiosity, try to reconnect "O accessory" and "O track" together, provide "L" to E socket, get your multimeter set on DC Voltage, power up all the stuff, and measure the voltage between "upper bn" socket and "E" socket, without any further action...Put your multimeter with minus wire on "bn" and plus wire on "E", and report...

Cheers
Fabrice
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Offline Roland  
#15 Posted : 16 November 2020 20:23:37(UTC)
Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 243
Location: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Just try to mail Viessmann for support. In the doc there is no minimum voltage for this "E" socket, only 16V AC or DC.
Could that be the voltage at "E" is not enough ?


That's what I'm not sure of. That's why I posted up the details of my PS in case anyone here is aware of a minimum required voltage. It's definitely enough Voltage to throw the solenoid - I tested this at the end of the bus where it connects to the 5211. But maybe the 5211 internally has a minimum requirement of 16V? Would be great if anyone is able to confirm.

I bought these Viessmann decoders from my local Märklin dealer so if I can't further pinpoint the problem I'll reach out to him next for advice.

Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Out of curiosity, try to reconnect "O accessory" and "O track" together, provide "L" to E socket, get your multimeter set on DC Voltage, power up all the stuff, and measure the voltage between "upper bn" socket and "E" socket, without any further action...Put your multimeter with minus wire on "bn" and plus wire on "E", and report...


Roughly 13.7-13.8V.
Offline French_Fabrice  
#16 Posted : 16 November 2020 20:27:27(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,309
Location: Lyon, France
Ah, OK, so the voltage seems equal to the DC Power... Is it +13,7V ?

Now the question is: Is it enough ?

Last question: Have you available an old 32VA transformer like 6647 ? It should be interesting to wire it ...


Cheers
Fabrice
Offline Roland  
#17 Posted : 16 November 2020 20:30:18(UTC)
Roland

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Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 243
Location: Toronto, Canada
.
Offline Roland  
#18 Posted : 16 November 2020 20:31:48(UTC)
Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
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Location: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Ah, OK, so the voltage seems equal to the DC Power...

Now the question is: Is it enough ?

Last question: Have you available an old 32VA transformer like 6647 ? It should be interesting to wire it ...


Cheers
Fabrice


Let me dig through some of my old transformers and see what I have.
Offline French_Fabrice  
#19 Posted : 16 November 2020 20:34:32(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,309
Location: Lyon, France
Avoid too old transformers... A fairly recent one with plastic case should be fine.
Otherwise old metal transformers can be very dangerous...

Cheers
Offline Roland  
#20 Posted : 16 November 2020 20:43:34(UTC)
Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 243
Location: Toronto, Canada
Unfortunately an old 6053 16VA Nr202 transformer is the only other potential power supply I have at this point. I have some others buried in boxes somewhere, but they are all also older, from the 60s-70s as well.
Offline fkowal  
#21 Posted : 16 November 2020 23:49:25(UTC)
fkowal

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Posts: 48
Location: Toronto
Hi Roland, I am sure you are aware the light transformer ground (brown) needs to be connected to the CS3 ground (brown) in order for the 5211 to function properly. The only remaining options are the 5211, or the CS3, or the light transformer are defective. Let's check the first. Let us remove the light transformer completely. Plug in the red (B) from the CS3 into the "E" connection on the 5211. Does this solve the problem? If not, have you checked if any of the other 3 solenoid connections function on the 5211? If still a problem, have you checked if the little piano keyboard on the 5211 is correctly set for the items you want to activate on the CS3 keyboard? My guess is either a incorrect piano setting on the 5211 or the absence of an effective common ground (O, brown) between the CS3 and the light transformer. I have 5211's installed on my layout and have good success with them.
The "E" connection can take 16 VAC, 16V DC or digital train control power.

In my case, I have 16 V DC going into the "E" socket.
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Offline Roland  
#22 Posted : 17 November 2020 00:47:50(UTC)
Roland

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Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 243
Location: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted by: fkowal Go to Quoted Post
Hi Roland, I am sure you are aware the light transformer ground (brown) needs to be connected to the CS3 ground (brown) in order for the 5211 to function properly. The only remaining options are the 5211, or the CS3, or the light transformer are defective. Let's check the first. Let us remove the light transformer completely. Plug in the red (B) from the CS3 into the "E" connection on the 5211. Does this solve the problem? If not, have you checked if any of the other 3 solenoid connections function on the 5211? If still a problem, have you checked if the little piano keyboard on the 5211 is correctly set for the items you want to activate on the CS3 keyboard? My guess is either a incorrect piano setting on the 5211 or the absence of an effective common ground (O, brown) between the CS3 and the light transformer. I have 5211's installed on my layout and have good success with them.
The "E" connection can take 16 VAC, 16V DC or digital train control power.

In my case, I have 16 V DC going into the "E" socket.


Hi Frank, yes I've tried all of your suggestions. Everything works fine with track power plugged into the E socket.

I believe the issue could be that my PS supplies 13.8V DC while the 5211 might require a full 16V. I don't currently have a reliable 16V DC source so I can't test to confirm.

For now I'll just use track power which works fine.

Thanks
Roland
Offline fkowal  
#23 Posted : 17 November 2020 03:28:21(UTC)
fkowal

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Joined: 01/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 48
Location: Toronto
Roland, to be more exact, I use a Viessmann 5215 Powermodule to supply DC voltage to the “E” port. On the Powermodule input side I have a Märklin standard 16 VAC. I have not measured the output side. My guess is it is in range of 18 - 20 VDC.
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Offline Roland  
#24 Posted : 17 November 2020 03:51:02(UTC)
Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 243
Location: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted by: fkowal Go to Quoted Post
Roland, to be more exact, I use a Viessmann 5215 Powermodule to supply DC voltage to the “E” port. On the Powermodule input side I have a Märklin standard 16 VAC. I have not measured the output side. My guess is it is in range of 18 - 20 VDC.


Hi Frank, I planned to eventually pick up a 5215 more so to prevent LEDs from flickering. But I'm not sure it would help here.

Do you still have a Pyramid PS7KX 13.8V DC power supply? If so, any chance you could try powering a 5211 with it and seeing if it's does in fact throw your a turnout solenoid? From all the testing done, it seems as though the 5211 requires a full 16V, and so I'd be curious to see if yours fails as well.
Online DaleSchultz  
#25 Posted : 17 November 2020 04:11:32(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,520
Are your CS3 and the external power supply plugged into the same power socket?

Try reversing the plug of the external power supply.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
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Offline Roland  
#26 Posted : 17 November 2020 05:04:10(UTC)
Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 243
Location: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
Are your CS3 and the external power supply plugged into the same power socket?

Try reversing the plug of the external power supply.


Hi Dale,

The CS3 and accessory PS are both plugged into the same power bar. Is that what you're asking about? It's not possible to flip the plug as one prong is larger than the other, and outlets here generally expect the larger prong on the left side.

If you're referring to the 5211 sockets, when using the accessory PS to attempt to power my solenoids, my wiring is essentially as follows where Digital Signal represents the CS3 and Power (lights) represents my accessory 13.8V DC power supply.

UserPostedImage
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Offline rbw993  
#27 Posted : 17 November 2020 17:36:01(UTC)
rbw993

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Posts: 680
The Viessmann manual does say 16V ac/dc. But I find it hard to believe 13.8v doesn't work

Roger
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Offline Roland  
#28 Posted : 17 November 2020 18:09:15(UTC)
Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 243
Location: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted by: rbw993 Go to Quoted Post
The Viessmann manual does say 16V ac/dc. But I find it hard to believe 13.8v doesn't work

Roger


Right 16v is suggested by Viessmann but 13.8v is more than enough to throw the switch. Hopefully someone will eventually confirm that they've successfully/unsuccessfully tested 5211 decoders with less than 16V.
Offline fkowal  
#29 Posted : 18 November 2020 00:41:14(UTC)
fkowal

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Posts: 48
Location: Toronto
Roland, I did a quick check. The 5211 does NOT work with 13.8 VDC on the “E” connection. I guess when Viessman says 16V, they mean it.
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