Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline husafreak  
#1 Posted : 06 April 2020 20:23:00(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 559
Location: California, Bay Area
I am well established in the Marklin Z camp and have been enjoying that for some time now. I know nothing about Marklin HO equipment. Except that I expect high standards. I have a high roof living space in my home which would allow for a loop about 3' x 20' about 10' high. So it will require a short ladder to access and should be DCC controlled remotely, ideally via a cell phone like he Roco system, and very reliable. The track won't be visible, just the train circulating above the central fireplace and TV on the big beam type structure that crosses the room. Of course I'll want a train with all of the bells and whistles, a steam train with smoke capability, something like a BR86 pulling ERA III (short) cars. Just for fun and also because my wife thought that would be nice!
Since I love Marklin Z and my Insider Club membership keeps me well informed about both Z and HO products I though I would start here. First question is 2 vs 3 rail track? And second question is whether Marklin is the brand for this project, as opposed to Trix, or Roco, or? A penny for your thoughts!
Offline cookee_nz  
#2 Posted : 07 April 2020 00:48:23(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,955
Location: Paremata, Wellington
For what you describe, your biggest concern is reliability. one of the main enemies of any model railway is bad electrical connections, generally due to dirty track. Dust is your enemy.

If you have an exposed beam up high, what is the level of dust (if any) already on it and if so, how long since it was last cleaned? That will give you some idea how often you might need to clean the track. You'd be surprised how much dust can settle up high. Woot

A good alternative might be something like the Lux track cleaning & vacuum wagons. They are pretty good, but not cheap. However having used one recently several times on a friends layout, I'm sold on them.

Personally, I'd consider 3-rail, because your surface area for conductivity to the Loco is higher. Wheels on two outer rails, and a contact via the pickup shoe across several studs. One of the best things you can do with a layout like that is simply to run it regularly enough to keep it active.

But, be aware that with Digital, (depending on the model) even a brief power interruption can stop a loco dead in its tracks due to the permanent magnet, whereas with a different motor having a flywheel the inertia of the armature sometimes compensates for this and can allow the Loco to coast past a brief interruption.

You can also get Capacitors that you can install into the Loco to overcome this, sometimes called a 'keep alive' device.

Hope this helps.
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by cookee_nz
Offline husafreak  
#3 Posted : 07 April 2020 05:23:30(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 559
Location: California, Bay Area
OK great, a good start and yes, reliable ops will be a big deal with this project as regularly dragging the ladder out to give it a little nudge would be a PITA! It is very dusty here in CA, dusty and dry. This will be a bulletproof type layout designed to be vacuumed. A keep alive circuit and or a heavy flywheel in the loco is a good idea. I'll check out the Lux system. It will have to be a DCC loco though as the best part will be operating the myriad DCC sound and light features from my couch! Do 3 rail systems have special requirements for DCC operation? Or is the DCC information just sent via a rail? Now that I think of it is 3 rail a DC system? Does it just use the center rail and one of the outer rails for power? I don't really understand why there is a third rail.
Offline Bogenschütze  
#4 Posted : 07 April 2020 11:37:45(UTC)
Bogenschütze

United Kingdom   
Joined: 10/09/2019(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: England, Chichester
Hi,

After a lifetime of dabbling with DC 2-rail layouts, I achieved a childhood ambition and received a Marklin digital starter set (with a Br E40 loco) for my 70th birthday. I've since added a V60 shunter. The first thing I noticed was the reliability and super smooth running of the locos due to the 3-rail power feed. The slider keeps the live centre studs (or puckos) shiny clean and two rails with all wheels in contact for the return provide maximum contact through turnouts, uneven track and even on mildly dirty rails.

The main advantage of 3-rail operation over 2-rail in my opinion is not having to worry about switches or relays to change polarity of rails where they meet at turnout frogs and also on return loops.

I can thoroughly recommend C-track. I'm still running a "Karpetbahn"at the moment so am constantly clipping the track together and taking it apart when finishing a session. So far the track has proved robust and with totally reliable electrical connections. Earlier 2-rail layouts built with Peco Setrack required constant fishplate adjustments to ensure continuity between adjacent sections.

Hope my experience helps.
Marklin - "The train set I never had as a child."
Keith Bowman
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Bogenschütze
Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 07 April 2020 11:54:41(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: husafreak Go to Quoted Post
Now that I think of it is 3 rail a DC system?
Digital is never DC.
You can operate three-rail track with DC and you can operate two-rail with AC as long as you have appropriate locos.

Digital is bipolar, so the diode tricks from two-rail DC cannot be used with digital.

Digital two-rail and digital three-rail use the same controllers and the same decoders, only difference is a symmetric track layout (three-rail, centre rail and outer rails) or an asymmetric layout (two-rail, left and right rail).

Centre rail can become rusty. A dry environment is good to prevent that. Frequent operation keeps the rust away.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline cookee_nz  
#6 Posted : 07 April 2020 12:00:46(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,955
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: husafreak Go to Quoted Post
OK great, a good start and yes, reliable ops will be a big deal with this project as regularly dragging the ladder out to give it a little nudge would be a PITA! It is very dusty here in CA, dusty and dry. This will be a bulletproof type layout designed to be vacuumed. A keep alive circuit and or a heavy flywheel in the loco is a good idea. I'll check out the Lux system. It will have to be a DCC loco though as the best part will be operating the myriad DCC sound and light features from my couch! Do 3 rail systems have special requirements for DCC operation? Or is the DCC information just sent via a rail? Now that I think of it is 3 rail a DC system? Does it just use the center rail and one of the outer rails for power? I don't really understand why there is a third rail.


With DCC / Digital the whole 2-rail / 3-rail thing becomes a bit blurred. Originally, until the advent of Digital, Märklin 3-rail meant AC plain and simple. With Digital it was more DC, but not quite. let's avoid that discussion for now because as far as you are concerned, in practice there won't actually be much difference in respect of operation, nor wiring.

Märklin track has the two rails as a common circuit - ie they are electrically joined. In fact with the earlier metal-based track they were mechanically joined as well. With K-track and C-track the sleepers or trackbed are plastic but the rails themselves are still bonded, and in such a way that electrical separation is not a simple option, although some have done it. But that's not relevant to this discussion.

So consider the two rails as one rail of your familiar 2-rail system, the centre 'rail' (actually discrete studs) are the other rail. It is even 'possible' to run Locos on 3-rail track using DC. Positive to the center rail, Negative to the outer rails - or vice-versa. As pointed out in Tom's reply, something like a reversing loop, where the track loops and comes back onto itself is so simple with 3-rail. There's no polarity reversal to worry about like you have with 2-rail.

The DCC signal is sent out over the tracks just like 2-rail. All special functions, features, sound, lights etc will control perfectly well.

Anyway, you have described well what you are looking for. The best thing if at all possible is to physically see a 3-rail set and all will become clear.

Keep the questions coming, you'll come to grips with it.

Cheers

Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by cookee_nz
Offline David Dewar  
#7 Posted : 07 April 2020 13:17:31(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,342
Location: Scotland
Marklin with three rail is probably as good as you will get without having to constantly reach the track and locos. However dust will collect and locos will stall from time to time. If it is just a loop with no turnouts etc then there is a good chance little attention will be required. As you already have a Z layout then you will know about Marklin quality. If you like Z then why not just stick with that.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by David Dewar
Offline river6109  
#8 Posted : 07 April 2020 14:07:03(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,726
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
The only problem I can see (or may be not) having it up in the rafters, with your age of 70 you may not see your train running being a Z gauge unless you're willing to wear binoculars BigGrin, if your train stops for any unknown reasons do you swing around the rafters to fix it or find the fault ?
HO is a good start but than nothing is wrong with Gauge I, you get more smoke, more noise, just be careful it doesn't land on your head and if this happens you may not know whether your train is coming or going.
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by river6109
Offline husafreak  
#9 Posted : 07 April 2020 18:52:33(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 559
Location: California, Bay Area
IMG_9019.JPGIMG_9021.JPGIMG_9020.JPG

Thank you all so much for your thorough and very helpful responses! This is for me the real beauty of forums, talking to mates about how to go about something is more fun for me than watching you tube videos or leafing through manuals and ad copy. That often makes me more confused!
I am happy to hear that a Marklin HO C Track system is reliable and robust, and not like a completely different animal like an old school Lionel AC system! Happy to hear that they can be operated via a "normal" DCC system. I really have a good grip now on how the track works. Oh and I'm not 70, yet, only 60! I'll just put on my basketball sneakers and jump up there if a train jumps the track ;) Where I live we certainly have dust but the rails don't tarnish, there is no rust issue really. A dust car and regular running should keep it serviceable for the most part, and an occasional vacuum.
I'll try to compare a 1 gauge Marklin to an HO but I would not consider smaller. And I'd like to have a longer train running up there. I included some pictures to give you all an idea of the scale. That surface is 29.5" wide. I intend to add a cornice molding that will give me enough width for the track. If I use R2 C track about 36" width should be enough as the center diameter would be 34.40". I hadn't considered a turnout but of course that could be used to store a second loco if I ever wanted to. But I have an ideal spot at the pass through to climb up and swap out trains comfortably. I could put a teardrop section off to the right of the main oval over the bedroon door and maybe have some fun with that. For scenery I'm thinking narrow wood strips with trees which set behind the track mostly but a section or two could be in front and have the train weave behind them, the old in and out! That's it really. Christmas lights in some of those trees of course! Removing the tree strips and train should leave nothing to be seen up there, although the track can remain.

The next item of business will be picking out a loco and command system. The Marklin starter sets are nice but may not come with the more impressive loco's I like, or larger radius curves. I'd like a BR64 2-6-2 or something with a tender. I don't know how large I can go with R2 curves or how limited I would be with R1 curves so I'll have to look into that. Generally I would like to avoid the smallest R1 curves since I don't need them, but I can't go larger than R2.
My requirement for a DCC command station is only that it be wireless and perhaps reasonably priced. I'm sure the Marklin CS3+ is a great device but I don't know if they make something simpler and wireless. I really like the Roco Z21. It looks like the perfect solution to control this train wirelessly from an iPad on the couch. There is even a lower spec z21 version that could do the job. That Roco is the reason I have not researched Marklin control products yet.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by husafreak
bph
Offline cookee_nz  
#10 Posted : 07 April 2020 22:55:46(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,955
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Ok a picture paints 1000 words !!

Personally, I think you may find that 1-gauge, or LGB might actually be more appealing?

To see an H0 train at that height/distance, it will need to run pretty close to the edge whereas a larger scale will be more visible, more of the time.

If you don't know, LGB is also owned by Märklin and although it is a 'Garden' scale, it has the same track gauge as 1 = 45mm.

You might also consider looking on ebay for "Maxi" - this is also gauge 1, but it's less expensive and perhaps more 'rustic' looking but very appealing to many.

You can get both LGB and Maxi in starter-packs which will give you an attractive train, a pack of track, and then all you need is to add more track.

I reckon that a larger scale would look awesome up there and fit in well with plants, ornaments etc !!

And reliable running second to none - larger gauges are designed with outdoor running in mind and that's as harsh as you can get.

Of course budget plays a big part, that's entirely your decision but it does give you some more options to at least consider
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by cookee_nz
bph
Offline blid  
#11 Posted : 08 April 2020 10:20:16(UTC)
blid

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 228
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
I have the same concerns as Cookee has but I suggest that you start by making a mockup of your intended train. HO on C-track stands just under 2.5 inch tall. Place the mockup (boxes or true scale printout etc) on the same distance from the edge as the tracks are going to be. Check what it looks like from where you want to watch it. You may want to raise the track an inch or two. The tracks are to be screwed down to something anyway.

If you want a lager scale in the Marklin family the tightest curves requires about 50 inch and then you will probably be restricted to very short/small engines.

In the US you have 3-rail O-Gauge like Atlas O27 and O31. Again the engines for those tracks are not for the big steamers. MTH have always had remote control for their system and the current decoder generation (PS3) understands DCC too. I think Lionel have starter sets with a simple remote control dedicated to the engine in the box.

Given the size of the entire loop I think a HO train will look better – if you can spot it.

Note. If you introduce turnouts it will have a huge impact on operational reliability.
OneGauge Marklin and MTH, ESU ECoS 2.1 on LGB tracks. MTH 3-rail 0-gauge, DCS on GarGraves tracks. Z: Rokuhan tracks, analog or DCC+TC Gold.
Offline husafreak  
#12 Posted : 08 April 2020 19:13:51(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 559
Location: California, Bay Area
All of your comments, a good nights sleep, and a bit of research have got it about sorted. I will put a life size color printout up there and decide whether HO looks OK. And I decided to forgo any complications like turnouts. I agree it has to dead reliable to really work in this context. One thing I said before is I like long trains. I want the effect to be prototypical "train going by off in the distance". I don't want it to look like a toy on a track, like you see sometimes in a bar or restaurant. Looking at current Marklin offerings a Marklin Class 03 with tender pulling a half dozen Silberlinge cars is well over 6' long. With my loop being 15' end to end that means that train would take up almost half the straight going by, which I think would be a nice proportion. And with everything lit up internally I believe it could be pretty impressive, especially evenings around holidays and family gatherings with the fireplace going ;) I know it's two different era's but I'll bet 15 year old steam pulled those new cars at some point. And it looks like I won't need R2 curves. Marklin says these require minimum R1 curves. If I use R1 curves that would make this dead easy. That would put the edge of the track right on the unfinished plaster edge of the structure. If If I underlay the track to insure line of sight includes the top of the rails then the visibility will be as good as possible. I've never had one of my Z scale locos fall off the track so I hope that is not a problem in this scale! I think the remote control can best be handled very economically via my iPad and the Roco z21 system. It would be dedicated to this one track anyway. And if my wife and I decide after the fact that it doesn't show well or is too much trouble I'll still have a nice museum class Marklin HO loco, a loop of track, and a remote control system to play with ;) But for now no Karpetbahn for me, I'll have der Sparrenbahn.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by husafreak
Offline mvd71  
#13 Posted : 08 April 2020 23:44:25(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Auckland,
Sounds like a nice plan. Just for your info, there are starter sets that have locos with all the extensive functions you would like.

If you are really keen on the silberlinge coaches with a steam loco, could I suggest Marklins BR23? It has all the advanced features, and prototypic ally was used extensively with the silberlinges all the way into the 1970,s

Cheers....

Mike
Offline husafreak  
#14 Posted : 09 April 2020 06:58:00(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 559
Location: California, Bay Area
Very good, a prototypically correct loco, 2-6-2 vs 4-6-2 so the difference in appearance is minor. Thanks for pointing that out. I will have a good look at the starter sets, they are usually a very economical choice, but not the ultimate choice.
Offline husafreak  
#15 Posted : 10 April 2020 03:54:31(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 559
Location: California, Bay Area
Hey Mike, the Marklin POP set also looks very nice, Silberlinge coaches are pretty classy but the POP coaches are a lot of fun. What loco would have pulled those? The BR23 again? Or the Class 03? And there are the Era III cars sets which are all short dark green cars. But I saw a picture of a German Crocodile pulling 15 of them. Pretty cool. But only if they are lighted internally.



Originally Posted by: mvd71 Go to Quoted Post
Sounds like a nice plan. Just for your info, there are starter sets that have locos with all the extensive functions you would like.

If you are really keen on the silberlinge coaches with a steam loco, could I suggest Marklins BR23? It has all the advanced features, and prototypic ally was used extensively with the silberlinges all the way into the 1970,s

Cheers....

Mike


Offline mvd71  
#16 Posted : 10 April 2020 05:16:09(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Auckland,
If I recall correctly it would have been a BR141 pulling the pop coaches. There was a set marklin did a number of years back that had the loco in the set, and some variants were digital (albeit early digital with limited functionality)

A BR03 would have pulled quite a variety of coaches over the years. Quite common would be d-zug coaches, however many other options could be run, and mixed together.

One of the great things through the years is that all sorts of stuff was pressed into service when the need arose. For example, there used to be a picture in one of Marklins old brochure of a BR45 heavy freight loco pulling a short commuter train.

I would suggest troll through eBay and see what sets you see coming available and decide what you like. The main thing to be aware of is cross era error. Eg try not to have an era 4 numbered BR 003 pulling era 3 d-zug coaches. Other than that try stuff out, even marklin have done mix and match sets.

Cheers....

Mike
Offline husafreak  
#17 Posted : 10 April 2020 07:06:09(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 559
Location: California, Bay Area
Sounds good. I'll stick with steam and find coaches that work together. Funny you mentioned the BR141 as the last Z scale Marklin I got was an E41, nice loco in blue livery, but I gotta have a steam loco. Since it is a first train in HO for me I could save a lot starting with a set.
Offline mvd71  
#18 Posted : 10 April 2020 09:40:37(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Auckland,
Get one with sound and smoke unit 👍

Preferably one that takes the bigger 7226 smoke unit as they work better than the small diameter 72270

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by mvd71
Users browsing this topic
Guest
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 1.064 seconds.